Cannot allow a shady used car saleman to live when it is your choice

[PenitentDemon]

Does the MAlakite oath against allowing an evil to live when it is your choice only mean DEMONS or does it mean any humans or ethereals who seem to be evil?

E.g. if a malakite finds the Sociopathic Child genius, in Liber Servitorium, do they have to kill him, or can they try to reform him?

[William]

They don't even have to kill demons, if they can reform them, or thoroughly and permanently thwart their schemes -- they just have to stop the evil.

Killing humans is generally a no-no, and usually undertaken only when the threat to other humans is severe.

[Archangel Beth]

Sensible Archangels tell their Malakim something like, "I order you to avoid killing humans, even evil ones, unless there is no other reasonable option."

This means that if they leave an evil human alone, it's not their choice, and so they do not get dissonance -- but there's enough wiggle-room for heat-of-battle and the like.

Evil ethereals are just as much target practice as demons.

Of course, "evil" can be a slippery concept, even for the Malakite resonance. And there's the tack Novalis prefers her Virtues take, which tends to be very much in the "hate the sin, redeem the sinner" line. Destiny's Malakim are similarly prone to "Best way to kill evil demons is to get them to be good angels" thinking.

And then there's Kathriel... http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=894 (Not canon, but, whuzza term, deuterocanonical?)

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Sensible Archangels tell their Malakim something like, "I order you to avoid killing humans, even evil ones, unless there is no other reasonable option."

And what do David, Eli and Jordi tell them? :-)

[Archangel Beth]

David's already have the usual Stone "don't hit first" dissonance, and I suspect David figures that's fine.

Eli probably told his, "be cool" -- but may well have emphasized the "try other options first, if you can" part. He and Novalis get along, plus he's a Mercurian, so the whole "smite the sin, help the sinner" concept is probably in there. "Evil is a concept, not a person," would be one way of putting it?

Jordi thinks all humans need to be reined in, but God said that it's not acceptable to winnow them back to the Stone Age, and God is Alpha, so... Look, don't make disturbance if you don't have to, and eating humans makes lots of disturbance -- and causes humans to go killing animals, so think really hard about what you're going to do before you tear a human's throat out.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Look, don't make disturbance if you don't have to, and eating humans makes lots of disturbance -- and causes humans to go killing animals, so think really hard about what you're going to do before you tear a human's throat out.

I thought that a Jordite in the Vessel of a Bengal Tiger killing (by ripping their throat out) and eating a Human would generate no disturbance. OTOH a Gerbil doing the same thing, would generate disturbance, right?)

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by William

They don't even have to kill demons, if they can reform them, or thoroughly and permanently thwart their schemes -- they just have to stop the evil.

Killing humans is generally a no-no, and usually undertaken only when the threat to other humans is severe.

Getting them disbarred or delicensed or arrested by the mundane police could all be good options.

But is it honorable to fabricate evidence to frame them if real evidence is not available?

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

Getting them disbarred or delicensed or arrested by the mundane police could all be good options.

But is it honorable to fabricate evidence to frame them if real evidence is not available?

That depends on how the Malakite has defined his honor (i.e. which oaths he's sworn). Note the vignette in either the core rules or GURPS In Nomine, where a Malakite makes a promise and almost immediately breaks it, saying he never swore to act like a Seraph...

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by robkelk

That depends on how the Malakite has defined his honor (i.e. which oaths he's sworn). Note the vignette in either the core rules or GURPS In Nomine, where a Malakite makes a promise and almost immediately breaks it, saying he never swore to act like a Seraph...

Yeah, I think "honor" is really kind of the wrong way to think about Malakim.

Virtues are the Symphony's white blood cells. They exist to seek out and cleanse the stain of evil and selfhood from reality with utter ruthlessness. Their other chains are there to keep them in check; they are monsters on leashes, and Heaven knows it.

Even the most sophisticated Virtue of Flowers is running on a heartless and simple algorithm of "hunt, kill, repeat." When it enjoins a demon to sit in a garden and just try the joy of connecting with the world, it, unlike a Cherub or Mercurian, is not at all concerned with the good of its fellow being as an end in herself, but treating her as a means for reducing the number of demons in the world. It swiftly monitors and executes nonviolent alternatives, precisely so that they might be exhausted.

[PenitentDemon]

I got the impression in the angelic players guide, that once a Malakim is satisfied of the sincerity of a demons desire for redemption hes likely to refer them aSAP to other angels, as he has no nurturing instinct, towards anyone.

Also that hes probaly not going to Try "Grooming" a demon who hasnt actualy, decided to seek redemption yet, but has shown some minor but definite Selfless tendencies, UNLESS ordered to do so. (in which case hes still going to be good for nothing but "That Balseraph of lust, had to ulterior motive when he helped the young woman pay for the treatment for her cancer... but hes come to resent her for the dissonance he suffered, it will take some work to convince him to do so again, and again"