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Plane · 08-17-2020, 12:10 PM

(cont)
I think there are two possible fixes to the dilemma, because we should want the possibility of characters spending points on allies only usable in native form or only usable in altered form.

1) require Allies to be bought with a cosmic enhancement like +50% usable in all forms (I think I saw that somewhere in PU4) otherwise they're considered part of a racial template and locked to that form
2) allow Allies to take a limitation like "only in native form" or "only while shapeshifted"
3) treat "Not My Ally" as an inverse Temporary Disadvantage which applies both to the 15 point base and any extra points you spend on Alternate Form. This includes the 80% cap on how many points you can save. This is basically Temporary Disadvantag: Shutdown

I'm thinking 3 is probably better, since in theory if you had very cheap Shapeshifting it could be entirely paid for by -10% discounts on Allies, and then you could just get cheap allies and never shapeshift and never lose the allies.

That's actually a concern for a lot of abilities though.

Like for example if you have "Only While Insubstantial" on Regeneration and you're ALWAYS insubstantial anyway (whether due to limitation or choice to remain so) then it's like free points on regeneration, and you're only ever going to suffer as a result of it if someone forces you into substantial form against your will.

I'm wondering if one solve for that would be to remove "only while using advantage" as a limitation for other advantages, and instead codify that as "temporary disadvantage: no advantage" as limitations on the used advantage.

The balance of the latter approach is then the 80% savings cap of Temporary Disadvantages prevents the abuse of getting a 10% discount to high-expense abilities while using stuff you might always want to use anyway.

You might "always want to use" your alternate form if it's just better in every way than your native form, for example. I think that's why the 90% > 100% increase if you can't be forcibly reverted from it.

If you never want to revert then you're paying 15 points for nothing, but if we were to allow "only while shapeshifted" discounts on other abilities, that's a problem if it saves more than 15 points.

So instead of allowing that, such abilities should instead be bought as part of the racial template, rather than getting benefits.

As for abilities NOT usable in alternate form (ie "I can create vampires, but they only function as allies when I revert to human form, not when I am still a vampire" as conceptually weird as that sounds) one idea that comes to mind is purchasing such alliances as "Alternative Advantages" (1/5 cost of lesser ability)

Why that seems more balanced than allowing "accessibility: only in my native form" is for the same reason: if you're never forced to use Alternate Form (that only happens if there are limitations like Uncontrollable applied, it can even become a disadvantage) then you might just spend 15 points on "shapeshifting I never plan to use" to get discounts on your allies.

It'd be like having Insubstantiality and "Allies who are only my allies when I am substantial". Enough -10% discounts and eventually you could pay for Insubstantiality with it and just never use it... This is not a problem with Alternative Abilities though.

It's different if you're discounting stuff like Invisibility (Accessibility: Only While Insubstantial) because in that case you have to deviate from an established norm (substantiality) to use an advantage.

That seems to be the in-vogue alternative to buying Link+10% when designing switchable abilities on the cheap...

Link+20% pricing seems off since in theory B108 Selectivity +10% would allow you to turn Link off if you wanted to use stuff solo. That's the same price but gives you the freedom to flip OTHER enhancements on and off too.

I'd either want to boost cost of Selectivity (+15% ... or maybe scale somehow based on how many enhancements you buy?) or reduce the cost of Link+20...

If we applied Selectivity +10% to the value of enhancements instead of the advantage (ie treat it as "Switchable for Enhancements: enhanced enhancements" that's what would make most sense to me, because there's limited value for example in being able to switch Accurate 1 +5% on and off.

That also is a lot more versatile since then you can buy selectivity for some enhancements and not others, rather than all-or-nothing.

08-17-2020, 12:10 PM	#4
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Strange Interactions [Basic/Powers] (cont) I think there are two possible fixes to the dilemma, because we should want the possibility of characters spending points on allies only usable in native form or only usable in altered form. 1) require Allies to be bought with a cosmic enhancement like +50% usable in all forms (I think I saw that somewhere in PU4) otherwise they're considered part of a racial template and locked to that form 2) allow Allies to take a limitation like "only in native form" or "only while shapeshifted" 3) treat "Not My Ally" as an inverse Temporary Disadvantage which applies both to the 15 point base and any extra points you spend on Alternate Form. This includes the 80% cap on how many points you can save. This is basically Temporary Disadvantag: Shutdown I'm thinking 3 is probably better, since in theory if you had very cheap Shapeshifting it could be entirely paid for by -10% discounts on Allies, and then you could just get cheap allies and never shapeshift and never lose the allies. That's actually a concern for a lot of abilities though. Like for example if you have "Only While Insubstantial" on Regeneration and you're ALWAYS insubstantial anyway (whether due to limitation or choice to remain so) then it's like free points on regeneration, and you're only ever going to suffer as a result of it if someone forces you into substantial form against your will. I'm wondering if one solve for that would be to remove "only while using advantage" as a limitation for other advantages, and instead codify that as "temporary disadvantage: no advantage" as limitations on the used advantage. The balance of the latter approach is then the 80% savings cap of Temporary Disadvantages prevents the abuse of getting a 10% discount to high-expense abilities while using stuff you might always want to use anyway. You might "always want to use" your alternate form if it's just better in every way than your native form, for example. I think that's why the 90% > 100% increase if you can't be forcibly reverted from it. If you never want to revert then you're paying 15 points for nothing, but if we were to allow "only while shapeshifted" discounts on other abilities, that's a problem if it saves more than 15 points. So instead of allowing that, such abilities should instead be bought as part of the racial template, rather than getting benefits. As for abilities NOT usable in alternate form (ie "I can create vampires, but they only function as allies when I revert to human form, not when I am still a vampire" as conceptually weird as that sounds) one idea that comes to mind is purchasing such alliances as "Alternative Advantages" (1/5 cost of lesser ability) Why that seems more balanced than allowing "accessibility: only in my native form" is for the same reason: if you're never forced to use Alternate Form (that only happens if there are limitations like Uncontrollable applied, it can even become a disadvantage) then you might just spend 15 points on "shapeshifting I never plan to use" to get discounts on your allies. It'd be like having Insubstantiality and "Allies who are only my allies when I am substantial". Enough -10% discounts and eventually you could pay for Insubstantiality with it and just never use it... This is not a problem with Alternative Abilities though. It's different if you're discounting stuff like Invisibility (Accessibility: Only While Insubstantial) because in that case you have to deviate from an established norm (substantiality) to use an advantage. That seems to be the in-vogue alternative to buying Link+10% when designing switchable abilities on the cheap... Link+20% pricing seems off since in theory B108 Selectivity +10% would allow you to turn Link off if you wanted to use stuff solo. That's the same price but gives you the freedom to flip OTHER enhancements on and off too. I'd either want to boost cost of Selectivity (+15% ... or maybe scale somehow based on how many enhancements you buy?) or reduce the cost of Link+20... If we applied Selectivity +10% to the value of enhancements instead of the advantage (ie treat it as "Switchable for Enhancements: enhanced enhancements" that's what would make most sense to me, because there's limited value for example in being able to switch Accurate 1 +5% on and off. That also is a lot more versatile since then you can buy selectivity for some enhancements and not others, rather than all-or-nothing.