[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I refer to the Colt Model 1855, 20G Caplock. Totally different action, of course, but the lbs. used for Weight in the weapon tables should be the same unit of measurement regardless of the action type of the weapon and similarly sized lead shot propelled by black powder at similar velocities should produce similar recoil.

Ah OK in general I agree, however I'd also try to compare like for like as much as possible. The Tower gun is much more like for like comparison to the earlier blunderbuss in pretty much all ways. I.e. try and remove as many potential variables as possible (especially as we don't actually know what variables are used and how they are used for deciding the Rcl's and MinSt values of individual weapons listings)

Originally Posted by Icelander

The Weight difference is only 0.5 lbs. and the Blunderbuss has slightly higher Range. There's no reasonable way to conclude that the 20-gauge Blunderbuss firing 7 shot that do 1d pi and have Range 45/810 can be affected by less recoil in a Newtonian sense than a 20-gauge shotgun firing 7 shot that do 1d pi with range 40/800. If anything, it's the same felt recoil, the extra 0.5 lbs. of the Blunderbuss compensating for the slightly heavier shot thrown by it (as evidenced by the slightly longer 1/2D Range).

Thing is that assumes felt recoil here is only subject to that. Also we're equating felt recoil to the Rcl Stat and the MinST and I think we know from previous threads it's not that simple. Also we have the issue that we don't actually know the Blunderbuss' real Rcl, we only get the shot version not the slug version. Judging by the Towergun which seem to be throwing more shot out of lighter gun I think we can safely assume the TL4 version would have a lower slug Rcl stat.


On top of that is the point made above about not being like for like comparisons in terms of actual guns either.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I highly doubt any gun made with non-magical bronze or steel will even aspire to half of that velocity. In any case, that sort of velocity requires not only a completely sealed chamber and breech, with the only path open for expanding gasses pushing a tightly fitted ball out the muzzle, which is easy to do when the 'action' is an Ignite Fire spell, but also a fairly powerful Ignite Fire spell effect that simultaneously ignites the entire charge.

I agree it a idealised set up for actually projecting a ball out the barrel at a maximum velocity, but a lot of that doesn't effect the actual explosive force of the propellant (although a looser ball and lack of the idealised everything igniting at once will) which is what matters for the structural integrity of the gun.

Thing is we have lots of anecdotal evidence for older guns being loaded too hot, or loaded with more modern, more powerful/energetic propellants and bursting.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I guess it's not a typical example, being more in the nature of a alchemical-magical plasma-charge rifle than a TL4 technological construct.

Yes, and I'd give some pretty good stats accordingly!

Originally Posted by Icelander

Also, I'd love to read the PDF, but it takes me to a page which tells me my URL was invalid. Paywall? Password-protected?

Hmm strange it came up for me first time (maybe do a title search in google), either way in terms of what we're discussing here it;s not telling you anything you don't already know, low Muzzle velocity with quite quick drop off at range

Originally Posted by Icelander

Sure, for any weapon that proposes to function at such extreme velocities. I do not expect that to be common, however, with most longarms I envision using a fairly light charge of less finely ground smokepowder for subsonic velocites.

OK but that will mean you won't get the superior effect

Originally Posted by Icelander

On the other hand, historical muzzleloaders could often take a much heavier powder charge than the listed stats assume without bursting. The limiting factor was often the recoil that the shooter was prepared to face, not the strength of the barrel. When pushing a smaller ball faster than typical black powder weapons, this limiting factor is not as severe.

Hmm I think Much is relative term, they also burst.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Kentucky rifles didn't need massively heavy barrels to tolerate firing a .45 caliber ball at higher velocities than most military muskets operated at with their heavier balls. Even with their very long barrels, a typical example is listed in High-Tech as weighing 7 lbs., which is significantly lighter than I intend for the calivers and muskets used in my game. And the rifles were hand-crafted, with no tools that I'm aware of that are unavailable to TL4 craftsmen in the Forgotten Realms.


That's understood. But note that the performance of anything from 40-bore to 4-bore carbines, muskets, pistols and rifles can be improved very much from the stats listed in Low-Tech without reaching quite such awesome velocities. 'Just' increasing velocity from 300 fps to 900 fps makes pistols a whole different weapon, while 20- to 22-bore longarms can penetrate like low-to-average-velocity 8- to -4 bores if they achieve supersonic 1500-1600 fps at the muzzle rather than 650-1,000 fps.


For actual use by humans, I'm thinking mainly ST 9† to ST13† weapons. Most of it is a far cry from 4-bore elephant guns. On the other hand, they're a good benchmark for how much recoil impulse a human can handle and how much power an early TL5 barrel can stand.

I'm currently thinking that smaller balls at greater velocities mean less recoil for the same penetration and so of the weapons I've imagined for the human soldiers of the PCs, only the naval blunderbuss has a higher caliber than 20-bore.


Metallurgy is mature TL4 at most places that the PCs are getting their smithing done, with TL4+1 available to them in some numbers, TL4+2 being what brightest sparks affiliated with the Church of Gond are using for clockwork, springs and gearing and up to TL4^ and/or TL4+4 available through special methods. There's also quite a bit of TL1^ orichalum and TL1+3 improved bronze available in the Old Empires where they are, although both of these depend on magical or clerical support.

Ok the above all seem pretty linked yes i agree if you accessing better than average TL4 metallurgy (in what ever way) and you have better than average TL4 propellent than yep you'll get good results

Originally Posted by Icelander

This is true, but bronze guns were stronger than iron/steel ones at TL4 (and the added expense of bronze is trivial compared to smokepowder costs) and, in any event, it is not likely that they'll have any guns that are meant to reach a decent velocity built without having master craftsmen supervise the process and testing the results with the Measurement spell.

Yep that will certainly help as well

Originally Posted by Icelander

I haven't found what historical firearm that these stats represent, but I'd be surprised if a Cost of $245 at TL4 is meant to represent a fancy show-off gun when a Wogdon Dueller costs $300 at TL5 and does not count as Fine (Accurate).

Well considering the Wogdon dueller is only acc1 it shouldn't!

As I said I'd up the cost considerably

Originally Posted by Icelander

In any event, with the stock folded, it has one step lower Bulk than most of the military pistols found in LT, it does much more Dmg than anything but the 40" barrel Petronel (which it equals) and it has Acc 2 as a pistol. Yet it's cheaper than the inferior Military Pistol and Puffer Pistol. The only remotely competative pistol is the Queen Anne Pistol, but the increased Acc there is at least balanced by the extra trouble to reload it.

With the stock extended, it can be compared to the Fine (Accurate) Fusil Fin, except a few dollars cheaper, 2.6 lbs. lighter, one type of Dmg better (pi++ instead of pi+), one step of ST less, one step of Bulk less, but at least it's -10/-80 to Range compared to it. I don't really think that these few yards of Range make up for being better in so many other ways.

I'd understand it better if it was a famously successful weapon. But it's not. Why would everyone continue to use heavier and less accurate carbines, fusils and muskets for 150 years if this clearly superior alternative was available? At the very least; scouts, cavalry and skirmishers should have picked it up, as it is much lighter, handier and faster to reload than rifles while retaining the same Acc.

I'd think that if we were to change the stats of the weapon, a much more sensible change would be simply to reduce Acc to 2 with stock, Acc 1 without it. Then it's perfectly compatible with other weapons and quite useful as a niche weapon, without being better than everything else.

Well As I said I think it works better if you look at this as an exceptional gun that was very expensive. Which explains what it matches up so very favourably in comparison to contemporary guns but didn't become ubiquitous because of it's stat advantages (there's also the issue that we know there are granularity issues here with Acc etc, and some of these stats may have defaulted as being the "one better than that" in game terms)