Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblining)

Plane · 12-23-2021, 08:03 PM

This is a pretty gritty thing that you see Goblin Slayer do after he throws his sword into a goblin's head to save Priestess at the start of the Goblin Slayer movie during the TV series recap

(warning quite bloody)
https://youtu.be/SXhXpMWkwdM

I don't think Goblin Slayer steps on the dead goblin's torso for dramatic effect, this guy is a technician, he's like Batman, everything he does has a tactical benefit.

I was thinking of ways you could approximate this necessity in GURPS terms: why did GS step on the torso first to set up the "retrieve my thrown sword from the back of this goblin's skull" objective?

It seems like something more necessary with smaller/lighter foes because they're so light that trying to pull your sword up could result in them staying on the sword and just being carried into the air as you lift.

Whereas with a larger/heavier foe, you could probably just pull up and the foe's own massive weight would probably provide enough resistance that they wouldn't be lifted and would "fall off" the sword more easily than the light goblin would.

-

One of the approaches I thought of in Technical Grappling (where the option exists to leave impaling weapons in foes for Control Points: TG15) is to house-rule it like an automatic necessity to "Break Free" of every single impaling attack by diminishes those "no longer optional" control points to end the 'wound grappling'.

Maybe not "point for point" though, as to make it easier to pull your own sword out of a foe than conversely for them to pull it out of themself? Or that could jsut come down to leverage: you get the ST multiplier of your weapon to dislodge it, your enemies do not.

This would then explain why you'd step on the torso: you're applying your higher leg ST (0.6 x trained ST instead of 0.5 x ST for an arm) to an easier target (-0 to grapple torso instead of -3 to grapple head) and then spending that CP on the torso to reduce the -3 hit location of the skull to "break free" of it w/ the rather-penalized (-2 to hit) "Using Your Legs".

You also notice GS does a little "wiggle" motion of pushing the sword handle forward laterally prior to pulling it up. I think this is sort of "widen the wound so it grips the sword less" so there is decreased resistance for the final pull.

In TG terms that might be something like a rapid strike where the first motion reduces some CP and the final motion puts CP below 0 and frees the sword from the brain/skull.

- -

My basic approach above short of emulating this consideration though:

"you don't need to step on the torso of the big goblin to pull your sword out, adding your own leg/torso mass to the goblin's torso is negligible, the force needed to pull your sword out is not adequate to lift it into the air regardless"

In that sense "gravity helps". You would need to step on a Goblin Champion GIANT to pull your sword out if it were a weightless Goblin Champion or of negligible mass that you could easily lift it (ie killing goblins on the moon or with 0.1 or 0.001 gravity)

Basically it seems like in a way there should be a way to harness mass and positioning to assist in attacking or improving a grapple.

You'd face the opposite problem if a Giant (HEAVY) goblin CHAMPION jumped on top of you (you're on your back) and you stabbed it: to actually "pull" the sword out (note your elbow is already on the ground, there's no space) you'd first have to pick up the giant heavy goblin and lift it up (for example: pressing it up with your leg muscles) to create enough space to pull "back and down".

Although the better strategy would probably be to change position where you topple it off to the side, at which point weight is negligible since gravity is not pulling the corpse toward your sword (if goblin is on top) or away from your sword (if goblin is on bottom)

- - -

What this seems to relate to is TG18's "Understand Relative Size Modifier and Weight Advantage" and TG35's "Establish a Weight Advantage" under "Change Position".

But if taking the approach of "how far my sword is stuck into the skull is like Control Points I need to Break Free of, representing pulling my sword out of the sticky wound" how do we work it so that "the goblin's higher weight is to my benefit in pulling my sword out when I stand above him, so that unlike a tiny light goblin I do not need to stamp down on his torso to prevent lifting him up" ?

It seems like something which could somehow use TG8's Grappling Encumbrance table, except that somehow the weight of your target works in your favor when breaking a wound-grapple instead of how weight normally works against you when influencing grappling rolls.

It also seems like their weight relative to your own ST would not matter (it only takes so much force to overcome the internal pressures of the brain holding your sword inside the body) but instead something like "the weight as compared to the Penetrating Damage" or "weight as compared to the injury" ?

- - -

I was wondering if instead of considering the goblin's Lifting ST that perhaps you could roll add the goblin's maximum HP (as a proxy for mass) to your Lifting ST when calculating thrust for your Break Free subtraction?

This would only apply when you have a 'Weight Advantage' being vertically above them in respect to gravity though. If you're on your side then it shouldn't matter what they weigh.

The converse situation (the dead goblin corpse has a weight advantage on you) would I guess be to subtract the goblin's maximum HP from your Lifting ST when calculating thrust to determine if you can pull your sword out?

That would explain why you wouldn't pull it out while the giant Goblin Champion corpse is on top of you (as a single motion) but rather roll it off you first.

In the case of being underneath a tiny goblin that probably wouldn't be necessary and you could do it in a single motion (they're low HP so it wouldn't interfere much to lift them off your sword)

- - -

TG8's GEM doesn't use "HP as a proxy for mass" like collissions (and sometimes knockback) but instead uses literal weight as compared to basic lift, but I wouldn't know how to use literal poundage as a means of influencing "thrust for control points" relative ST rolls.

It seems like actual weights generally ought to have HP equivalents (though you can buy non-mass HP density which complicates things) except in cases like "fat" or "skinny" disadvantages which mess around with the "ST determines weight" guidelines.

Since I'm saying your BL wouldn't matter in respect to the force needed to dislodge from a wound as compared to the weight (ie the depth of penetration is considered to be the HP lost due to injury and resulting Control Points) that's why it seems easier to go with proxy for weight instead of actual weight as a formulaic mechanic.

12-23-2021, 08:03 PM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblining) This is a pretty gritty thing that you see Goblin Slayer do after he throws his sword into a goblin's head to save Priestess at the start of the Goblin Slayer movie during the TV series recap (warning quite bloody) https://youtu.be/SXhXpMWkwdM I don't think Goblin Slayer steps on the dead goblin's torso for dramatic effect, this guy is a technician, he's like Batman, everything he does has a tactical benefit. I was thinking of ways you could approximate this necessity in GURPS terms: why did GS step on the torso first to set up the "retrieve my thrown sword from the back of this goblin's skull" objective? It seems like something more necessary with smaller/lighter foes because they're so light that trying to pull your sword up could result in them staying on the sword and just being carried into the air as you lift. Whereas with a larger/heavier foe, you could probably just pull up and the foe's own massive weight would probably provide enough resistance that they wouldn't be lifted and would "fall off" the sword more easily than the light goblin would. - One of the approaches I thought of in Technical Grappling (where the option exists to leave impaling weapons in foes for Control Points: TG15) is to house-rule it like an automatic necessity to "Break Free" of every single impaling attack by diminishes those "no longer optional" control points to end the 'wound grappling'. Maybe not "point for point" though, as to make it easier to pull your own sword out of a foe than conversely for them to pull it out of themself? Or that could jsut come down to leverage: you get the ST multiplier of your weapon to dislodge it, your enemies do not. This would then explain why you'd step on the torso: you're applying your higher leg ST (0.6 x trained ST instead of 0.5 x ST for an arm) to an easier target (-0 to grapple torso instead of -3 to grapple head) and then spending that CP on the torso to reduce the -3 hit location of the skull to "break free" of it w/ the rather-penalized (-2 to hit) "Using Your Legs". You also notice GS does a little "wiggle" motion of pushing the sword handle forward laterally prior to pulling it up. I think this is sort of "widen the wound so it grips the sword less" so there is decreased resistance for the final pull. In TG terms that might be something like a rapid strike where the first motion reduces some CP and the final motion puts CP below 0 and frees the sword from the brain/skull. - - My basic approach above short of emulating this consideration though: "you don't need to step on the torso of the big goblin to pull your sword out, adding your own leg/torso mass to the goblin's torso is negligible, the force needed to pull your sword out is not adequate to lift it into the air regardless" In that sense "gravity helps". You would need to step on a Goblin Champion GIANT to pull your sword out if it were a weightless Goblin Champion or of negligible mass that you could easily lift it (ie killing goblins on the moon or with 0.1 or 0.001 gravity) Basically it seems like in a way there should be a way to harness mass and positioning to assist in attacking or improving a grapple. You'd face the opposite problem if a Giant (HEAVY) goblin CHAMPION jumped on top of you (you're on your back) and you stabbed it: to actually "pull" the sword out (note your elbow is already on the ground, there's no space) you'd first have to pick up the giant heavy goblin and lift it up (for example: pressing it up with your leg muscles) to create enough space to pull "back and down". Although the better strategy would probably be to change position where you topple it off to the side, at which point weight is negligible since gravity is not pulling the corpse toward your sword (if goblin is on top) or away from your sword (if goblin is on bottom) - - - What this seems to relate to is TG18's "Understand Relative Size Modifier and Weight Advantage" and TG35's "Establish a Weight Advantage" under "Change Position". But if taking the approach of "how far my sword is stuck into the skull is like Control Points I need to Break Free of, representing pulling my sword out of the sticky wound" how do we work it so that "the goblin's higher weight is to my benefit in pulling my sword out when I stand above him, so that unlike a tiny light goblin I do not need to stamp down on his torso to prevent lifting him up" ? It seems like something which could somehow use TG8's Grappling Encumbrance table, except that somehow the weight of your target works in your favor when breaking a wound-grapple instead of how weight normally works against you when influencing grappling rolls. It also seems like their weight relative to your own ST would not matter (it only takes so much force to overcome the internal pressures of the brain holding your sword inside the body) but instead something like "the weight as compared to the Penetrating Damage" or "weight as compared to the injury" ? - - - I was wondering if instead of considering the goblin's Lifting ST that perhaps you could roll add the goblin's maximum HP (as a proxy for mass) to your Lifting ST when calculating thrust for your Break Free subtraction? This would only apply when you have a 'Weight Advantage' being vertically above them in respect to gravity though. If you're on your side then it shouldn't matter what they weigh. The converse situation (the dead goblin corpse has a weight advantage on you) would I guess be to subtract the goblin's maximum HP from your Lifting ST when calculating thrust to determine if you can pull your sword out? That would explain why you wouldn't pull it out while the giant Goblin Champion corpse is on top of you (as a single motion) but rather roll it off you first. In the case of being underneath a tiny goblin that probably wouldn't be necessary and you could do it in a single motion (they're low HP so it wouldn't interfere much to lift them off your sword) - - - TG8's GEM doesn't use "HP as a proxy for mass" like collissions (and sometimes knockback) but instead uses literal weight as compared to basic lift, but I wouldn't know how to use literal poundage as a means of influencing "thrust for control points" relative ST rolls. It seems like actual weights generally ought to have HP equivalents (though you can buy non-mass HP density which complicates things) except in cases like "fat" or "skinny" disadvantages which mess around with the "ST determines weight" guidelines. Since I'm saying your BL wouldn't matter in respect to the force needed to dislodge from a wound as compared to the weight (ie the depth of penetration is considered to be the HP lost due to injury and resulting Control Points) that's why it seems easier to go with proxy for weight instead of actual weight as a formulaic mechanic. Last edited by Plane; 12-23-2021 at 08:16 PM.