Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

EskrimadorNC · 12-04-2020, 11:49 AM

Timestamp: 1:46
BG#15 is back and does a, AoA grapple on Rama's knife arm
Rama breaks the grapple (Break Free)
And then hits BG#15 in the head with an elbow (stun?)

[This one is very straight forward. BG #15 grapple’s Rama’s arm before he can initiate a knife attack. The attack comes from Rama’s rear arc, so he doesn’t get any opportunity to defend. The attack lands, but It looks like a mediocre grapple, so the CP accumulation is probably pretty low (maybe 1-2 CP). Rama makes an attack to break-free. The BG did an AoA on the grapple, so cannot defend the break free attack. We haven’t established Rama’s Judo skill yet, but it is likely he is in the DX+4 range, which by TG would give him a Trained ST of 13, and 1d for CP. Assuming we aren’t using the Quick&Dirty or Cranking it Up switches, the average roll should be enough to remove all of the CPs of the grapple. Rama does break free successfully, and then uses his Extra Attack to throw an elbow (punch) at BG#15’s Face. That strike MAY be a TG attack, which would reduce the penalty to hit the head from -5 to -1. Rama hits, and does 1d to the face. Any damage forces a stun check, though Rama would need to roll max damage here to get a MW and force the check to be at -5. It takes BG#15 about 2 seconds to shake it off and he reengages on the 3rd second, so a STUN does seem more likely, but I will just attribute that to a botched HT roll rather than a MW. Rama is lucky here…this fight would have quickly gotten worse had the BG made the HT roll and been able to reengage more quickly.]

Timestamp: 1:49
BG#16 is back and throws an AoA low kick at Rama
Rama performs a Jam on BG#16's leg
Rama then stabs him in clavicle (vitals?) with the knife

[This time it is very clear that Rama performs a Jam on the BG’s low kick. Based on the footage it looks like Rama actually Jam’s the BG’s foot. The attack roll to hit the foot is only a -2 in this case, and Rama is skilled enough to easily eat that and still have a high degree of success. Dmg is Thr -3, for a base of 1d-4. If you add the +2 for High Karate and +1 for heavy boots, the dmg is 1d-1. That’s not great, but has a 50% chance to cripple the foot on a 10HP foe. I am going to say that Rama rolls well enough to cripple the foot as it forces the BG to change posture to kneeling. We see that affect more than once in this fight, so it seems to be the convention in this movie rather than a crippled limb dropping a person prone. As for the knife attack, I have no problem as a GM ruling the clavicle stab as a Vitals hit. This, along with the crippled foot, results in plenty enough damage to take BG#16 out of the fight.]

Timestamp: 1:51
BG#15 is back and AoA (s) grapples Rama's torso from behind
Rama cannot defend so is grappled.
BG#15 drags Rama a ways down the hall

[This bit is a lot harder to shoehorn into mechanics because you are dealing with a lot of Cinematic Conventions. The AoA (S) torso grapple from behind makes sense. Rama cannot defend, and it looks like the BG gets a decent amount of CP, especially with help from the AoA (S). There is really nothing in GURPS rules here that would cause Rama to lose his grip on the knife, but the director wants him to fight unarmed, so that’s how he gets there. Also, there is no tactical reason for the BG to drag Rama down the hall; it is done simply to improve the camera angle so the audience can see the fight better.]

Timestamp: 1:56
Rama leans forward making an attempt to break free.
It’s unclear if this is successful, but even if it is, BG#15 still retains some CP
BG#15 Forces Rama back to standing straight with another AoA Grapple

[So once they stop moving, Rama attempts to break free of the grapple. He is at a -4 because his opponent is in his rear arc (TG pg11). Even if this attack succeeds, it’s obvious that some CP remains and Rama is still grappled. The BG then performs another AoA (S) and likely replaces the CP Rama removed with his Break Free Attempt.]

Timestamp: 1:57
Still Grappled, Rama throws two elbows to BG#15's torso
BG#15 cannot defend so takes the hits.
BG tries to improve grapple, AoAs to counter shock penalties

[The elbow attacks make sense here as Rama can throw them to a target behind him with only a -2 (or -0 if improved tech). He likely also suffers another -1 or -2 from active control, depending on how many CPs his foe has accumulated. Since the BG did an AoA, Rama throws these as TG attacks, mitigating the penalties to hit. Both elbows connect doing a reasonable amount of damage. Considering that BG#15 previous took an elbow strike to the head, he is probably hovering around 1/3rd HP, which means he is at ½ Move/Dodge. He is also suffering a Shock Penalty on his turn. The BG attempts another AoA (D) to try and increase CP to mitigate the Shock Penalties. ]

Timestamp: 1:58
Still grappled, Rama throws another elbow
Followed-up by a judo grab of BG's head/arm
BG AoAs to break free and fails

[The 3rd elbow strike likely puts the BG into negative HP, but he seems to pass his HT check as he doesn’t immediately fall prone. Rama then performs a grapple. At my first take, it looks like Rama actually grapples BG#15’s head. Indeed he does that, but on further inspection of the footage, Rama ALSO grapples BG#15’s Arm. Adjudicating the Head Grapple is problematic because of the requirement for a Wild Swing and the low chance of success. However, if we rule that the “head grapple” isn’t really a head grapple but just the fluff part of the ARM grapple for the Judo throw, then things become much more manageable. Per TG p11 under “Side Arc” it specifically mentions that if limbs are wrapped around you, they are in your front arc and can be grappled at no additional penalty. This means that Rama only suffers a -1 for grappling the Arm, and maybe a -1 or -2 for active control penalties. Rama can offset these with a TG attack or even an AoA. Note that Rama maintains the grapple on BG#15’s arm after the throw, so he doesn’t spend all of his CPs on the throw. Also, in this scene the BG doesn’t seem to get an attack to break free as the throw happens immediately after the grapple, but we have to insert this maneuver in here in order to keep the flow in line with GURPS combat.]

12-04-2020, 11:49 AM	#6
EskrimadorNC Join Date: Jul 2015	Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis Timestamp: 1:46 BG#15 is back and does a, AoA grapple on Rama's knife arm Rama breaks the grapple (Break Free) And then hits BG#15 in the head with an elbow (stun?) [This one is very straight forward. BG #15 grapple’s Rama’s arm before he can initiate a knife attack. The attack comes from Rama’s rear arc, so he doesn’t get any opportunity to defend. The attack lands, but It looks like a mediocre grapple, so the CP accumulation is probably pretty low (maybe 1-2 CP). Rama makes an attack to break-free. The BG did an AoA on the grapple, so cannot defend the break free attack. We haven’t established Rama’s Judo skill yet, but it is likely he is in the DX+4 range, which by TG would give him a Trained ST of 13, and 1d for CP. Assuming we aren’t using the Quick&Dirty or Cranking it Up switches, the average roll should be enough to remove all of the CPs of the grapple. Rama does break free successfully, and then uses his Extra Attack to throw an elbow (punch) at BG#15’s Face. That strike MAY be a TG attack, which would reduce the penalty to hit the head from -5 to -1. Rama hits, and does 1d to the face. Any damage forces a stun check, though Rama would need to roll max damage here to get a MW and force the check to be at -5. It takes BG#15 about 2 seconds to shake it off and he reengages on the 3rd second, so a STUN does seem more likely, but I will just attribute that to a botched HT roll rather than a MW. Rama is lucky here…this fight would have quickly gotten worse had the BG made the HT roll and been able to reengage more quickly.] Timestamp: 1:49 BG#16 is back and throws an AoA low kick at Rama Rama performs a Jam on BG#16's leg Rama then stabs him in clavicle (vitals?) with the knife [This time it is very clear that Rama performs a Jam on the BG’s low kick. Based on the footage it looks like Rama actually Jam’s the BG’s foot. The attack roll to hit the foot is only a -2 in this case, and Rama is skilled enough to easily eat that and still have a high degree of success. Dmg is Thr -3, for a base of 1d-4. If you add the +2 for High Karate and +1 for heavy boots, the dmg is 1d-1. That’s not great, but has a 50% chance to cripple the foot on a 10HP foe. I am going to say that Rama rolls well enough to cripple the foot as it forces the BG to change posture to kneeling. We see that affect more than once in this fight, so it seems to be the convention in this movie rather than a crippled limb dropping a person prone. As for the knife attack, I have no problem as a GM ruling the clavicle stab as a Vitals hit. This, along with the crippled foot, results in plenty enough damage to take BG#16 out of the fight.] Timestamp: 1:51 BG#15 is back and AoA (s) grapples Rama's torso from behind Rama cannot defend so is grappled. BG#15 drags Rama a ways down the hall [This bit is a lot harder to shoehorn into mechanics because you are dealing with a lot of Cinematic Conventions. The AoA (S) torso grapple from behind makes sense. Rama cannot defend, and it looks like the BG gets a decent amount of CP, especially with help from the AoA (S). There is really nothing in GURPS rules here that would cause Rama to lose his grip on the knife, but the director wants him to fight unarmed, so that’s how he gets there. Also, there is no tactical reason for the BG to drag Rama down the hall; it is done simply to improve the camera angle so the audience can see the fight better.] Timestamp: 1:56 Rama leans forward making an attempt to break free. It’s unclear if this is successful, but even if it is, BG#15 still retains some CP BG#15 Forces Rama back to standing straight with another AoA Grapple [So once they stop moving, Rama attempts to break free of the grapple. He is at a -4 because his opponent is in his rear arc (TG pg11). Even if this attack succeeds, it’s obvious that some CP remains and Rama is still grappled. The BG then performs another AoA (S) and likely replaces the CP Rama removed with his Break Free Attempt.] Timestamp: 1:57 Still Grappled, Rama throws two elbows to BG#15's torso BG#15 cannot defend so takes the hits. BG tries to improve grapple, AoAs to counter shock penalties [The elbow attacks make sense here as Rama can throw them to a target behind him with only a -2 (or -0 if improved tech). He likely also suffers another -1 or -2 from active control, depending on how many CPs his foe has accumulated. Since the BG did an AoA, Rama throws these as TG attacks, mitigating the penalties to hit. Both elbows connect doing a reasonable amount of damage. Considering that BG#15 previous took an elbow strike to the head, he is probably hovering around 1/3rd HP, which means he is at ½ Move/Dodge. He is also suffering a Shock Penalty on his turn. The BG attempts another AoA (D) to try and increase CP to mitigate the Shock Penalties. ] Timestamp: 1:58 Still grappled, Rama throws another elbow Followed-up by a judo grab of BG's head/arm BG AoAs to break free and fails [The 3rd elbow strike likely puts the BG into negative HP, but he seems to pass his HT check as he doesn’t immediately fall prone. Rama then performs a grapple. At my first take, it looks like Rama actually grapples BG#15’s head. Indeed he does that, but on further inspection of the footage, Rama ALSO grapples BG#15’s Arm. Adjudicating the Head Grapple is problematic because of the requirement for a Wild Swing and the low chance of success. However, if we rule that the “head grapple” isn’t really a head grapple but just the fluff part of the ARM grapple for the Judo throw, then things become much more manageable. Per TG p11 under “Side Arc” it specifically mentions that if limbs are wrapped around you, they are in your front arc and can be grappled at no additional penalty. This means that Rama only suffers a -1 for grappling the Arm, and maybe a -1 or -2 for active control penalties. Rama can offset these with a TG attack or even an AoA. Note that Rama maintains the grapple on BG#15’s arm after the throw, so he doesn’t spend all of his CPs on the throw. Also, in this scene the BG doesn’t seem to get an attack to break free as the throw happens immediately after the grapple, but we have to insert this maneuver in here in order to keep the flow in line with GURPS combat.]