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Old 07-03-2015, 01:13 PM   #49
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
But clockwork is broad enough category that different things within it are assessed by different metrics.
I disagree. I believe the metrics are the same.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
And bringing in digital watches is very much relevant to watches and not to guns.
I should hope so! I mentioned them in context to watches.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So again where the "more" that you implied existed?
I have done no such thing.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So again as above show where that extra craft actually manifests in increased functionality. Otherwise you just have a complex difficult thing that adds no benefit compared to the simpler thing. to go back to my original point, complexity of design is not a inherent good thing if it doesn't come with anything in return.
All it needs to do is give aesthetic pleasure. Any actual practical gains would be very small but also fundamentally irrelevant.

Nor is it necessary for wheellocks to have technical advantages to persist. They must merely have social advantages and not have technical disadvantages their users care about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I agree, but since that didn't happen we can either assume that there was either some downside, or those circumstances didn't occur
The circumstances didn't occur! Obviously, if I wanted wheellocks to persist I would be doing things like tweaking relative dates of introduction and other factors. It's simply bizarre that you'd read "the right circumstances" as our circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
yes but the reputation has to be established and maintained by being their. Remember we're talking about a very small market here.
It's trivial to postulate that at least one company can manage to maintain quality standards enough for people to be able to signal their mechanisms quality externally.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
That only true if we accept you inherent point that status was irrevocably linked to the internal mechanisms, and you have not demonstrated that is the case.
Good thing I haven't attempted to do so, because trying that would be stupid. All that is necessary is for it to be plausible that the status of an item is associated with it's internal mechanism's quality, materials and difficulty to manufacture.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
te to break it to you but when ever and where ever they could they did
It seems my comment regarding slapping gold on things was appropriate then, because I would characterize what they did as decorating with gold not "yeah that thing? it's gold now".

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Sorry so far you reason seem to be limited to "because clockwork" and vague allusions to things below GURPS level granularity without actually going into much detail.
Then I encourage you to reread the thread, because you've clearly missed things.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK, it's just that by itself is not reason for increased status (I mean it can be part of it, but it normally comes with other factors, and is context specific)
All it needs to be is another factor.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No teh point you were making was: "wheel locks were more expensive than flint locks (being clock work), more expensive things are higher status, ergo wheel locks were higher status than flint locks."

My point was: "but given the all the extra costs of the decoration on top of each, the actually difference in price due to the mechanism is minuscule in comparison to the actual overall cost of the gun. So ergo any increases in status directly derived from different costs of the underlying mechanism in equally minuscule."

So inherent cost not relevant, so we come back to functionality
More proportionality.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Where did faster ignition come in? There's no increase in ignition speed until you get to percussion caps.
At the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I do think wheel-locks have significant disadvantages and it is not at all plausible that they would remain in production for long after flintlocks became available,
Which I have agreed with. High Malf makes a weapon unsuitable, Lower HT could work but makes things very difficult. Thus "if". What's being objected to here is that there are any pressures that could push wheellocks to persist, not that the net pressure is for them to stop being produced.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I can't find the blasted "Semenov equation"/relationship that nearly every paper references,
Is this

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/TheSemenovModel/

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