Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - Is there a fixed version of the Scroll enchantment?

Plane · 08-31-2020, 03:06 PM

Another issue with manastone/powerstone exploits is the x2 and x3 tricks...

These "attach to a magic item" things on M70 are basically FREE ... but I'm wondering if maybe we could require some kind of enchantment ==sto actually get that relationship between them. I'm thinking two-sided, one to modify how manastone/powerstone works, the other to modify how the spell linking to them works.

These would be sort of like "Limiting Enchantments" since they restrict what either spell can normally do, but also a boosting enchantment since the end result is it makes the output of powerstones/manastones more efficient.

step 1: two variations of "Dedicate Stone to Enchantment" which will create a "Dedicated Non-Attuned Stone". Only the stone needs to be present (range penalties are calculated to it). You must know the spell you're dedicating it to, but it can work for any particular item holding that enchantment. UNLESS the other is present, in which case you can dedicate it solely to that.

"Dedicate Powerstone to Enchantment" (cost 5% of enchantment + 5 per energy in Powerstone, or 200 whichever is less) prevents a powerstone from being used in any way except to power a particular enchantment in an item that it is touching. It will usually be ATTACHED to keep it constantly touching.

"Dedicate Manastone to Enchantment" (cost 1% of enchantment +1 per energy in powerstone, or 40, whichever is less) same as above except you're using a limited power supply so it's 1/5 the cost
NOTE ONE: for stones with 2+ energy you can cast it ALL AT ONCE to limit the entire stone, or you can cast it in levels. It is more energy efficient to do it all at once, but the lower per-casting cost for divided casting is more feasible for many mages

NOTE TWO: this prep gives no added efficiency, but is rather a prerequisite for the followup enchantments which then endow the efficiency. The only advantage to this is if you don't want your powerstones to be usable for purposes other than powering a magic item, in case someone got access to it. They could still use it, but only if they knew specifically which item to use it for. That's why the option of it being cheaper than Limit's usual 200 is proposed.

NOTE THREE: this must be cast multiple times for each enchantment you want to link the stone to. This allows it to fuel multiple spells in the case of an item carrying multiple enchantments. These spells do not interfere with one another.

The 200 cap is based on the cost of the "Limit" enchantment, since that's really all it's doing at this point. Applying 20% of the cost (40 energy) seems reasonable for Manastone since you're only limiting how a non-rechargeable source can be used.

Another (canon?) option might to just apply the 85% "Temporary Enchantment" discount to Limit: this would reduce Limit to 30 energy and is actually canon BUT: this means the limit only applies one time and then leaves, so it would leave your Manastone un-limited for future use if you didn't use up all the energy.

It is not legal to apply the 85% discount to Manastone/Powerstone themselves as they are not among the list of opted-in exceptions to the baseline ban on applying TE to meta/enchantment college. That said: there probably isn't any game balance problem with allowing that for Powerstone at higher levels.

1) Powerstone 1 usable 1 time is equal to Manastone 1, so you should pay the usual 25% cost (5 instead of 20, or 20 instead of 80) instead of 15% cost
2) Powerstone 2 usable 1 time is INFERIOR to Manastone 1: it can only fuel a single spell of 1 or 2 energy, while Manastone 2 has the option of fueling TWO spells costing 1 energy apiece.
3) the flexibility of Manastone (maximum uses = level of manastone) vs one-use powerstone grows with extra levels, making 15% cost vs 25% cost a lot more logical.

As for the first level: I actually think it's okay to allow the creation of a 1-use powerstone (so long as the ENTIRE stone is gone, not just levels equal to whatever amount of energy you used) for cheaper, because where paying 5 energy for manastone 1 instead of 3 energy for OUPS is valuable is when you aspire to later upgrade that to a more-flexible multi-use powerstone.

It seems wrong to allow the -85% Temporary Enchantment discount on Manastone though since it's energy is already temporary (doesn't recharge) so that ought only to be based on the higher powerstone costs...

There is still technically a drawback to it (Manastone 10 could be used to power 10 spells, OUMS can only cast 1 spell of 1-10 energy) but the end result is equal to something you'd get by limiting a powerstone to finite uses, so it shouldn't be allowed.

To be worth only 15% cost it seems necessary to make powerstones "all or nothing" because "only the levels I use expires" for powerstones would just make it equivalent to manastone but costing less.

Or actually WORSE because powerstones start off empty ("becomes an uncharged powerstone") whereas manastones presumably starts off fully charged (M127 says Charge Powerstone "does not work on Manastones" so if it didn't begin charged, there's no plausible way to charge it)

What might actually be interesting is if we actually altered the spell tree a bit. Manastone would be the baseline ("give an option capability of holding mana") and then make "Charge Manastone" a very expensive spell (much worse than the 3:1 ratio for CPS)

Then to upgrade manastone into powerstone it'd be something like "Draw Mana from Hex"

Then if you had that, you could cast the cheaper version of Charge Manastone (classic Charge Powerstone) which costs less since in addition to your own personal energy it is drawing upon future mana-draws to create a sort of point-debt.

With this approach, I am suggesting we do away with this usual policy:

If a dedicated Powerstone is removed from a magical item, the
magical item is automatically broken and loses its enchantment, but the
Powerstone is intact, and becomes a “normal” Powerstone again.

Anyway getting back to the "Dedicate Stone" stuff: if that becomes a problem later on (mage who made it wants to use the stone for generic use like casting his own spells by hand) then they can just do "Remove Enchantment". But anyway the followup (to get the x2 or x3 efficiencies) would then be to target the enchantments in the item to match up to the powerstone, so that both spells in synergy create the discount.

step 2: two variations of "Attune Enchantment to Stone":

"Attune Enchantment to Powerstone" (same cost as Dedicate Powerstone to Enchantment)
"Attune Enchantment to Manastone (same cost as Dedicate Manastone to Enchantment)

This step is done to prepare for the followup spells. It requires both the enchanted item and the stone it's attuning to to be present.

If enchanter is not touching one or either item, sum the distance caster is from each item respectively to calculate penalties.

They do not need to be touching or attached, although if they are not, ALSO add the distance between the items as a skill penalty (ie it is easier to enchant a staff+stone both 1 yard in front of you at -2 to skill, than to enchant a staff 1 yard in front and a stone 1 yard behind at -4 to skill.

step 3: two variations of "Synergize Stone to Enchantment" (Synergize Powerstone and Synergize Manastone)

cost is DOUBLE either of preceding 2 pairs, effect is getting the +100% output (1 energy from stone = 2 for spell)

step 4 "Exclude Non-Stone Enchantment Power" : this limits an enchantment in an item (must be cast multiple times for items with multiple enchantments) so that spells cast by it (per other colleges) or through it (per staff) cannot draw energy from the caster's HP/FP, only from manastones or powerstones which have been attuned to it as in step 1.

This follows the usual rules so they cannot be used in concert (maximum 1 powerstone or manastone can be tapped to fuel a spell at a time) but the item can, for either maintaining a spell or casting new spells, switch which powerstone or manastone it draws upon. This is effectively equivalent to "No External Energy" limitation from Thaumatology on the item's magery.

same as steps 1 or 2, half of step 3

step 5 "Synergize Enchantment to Stone" is a followup pair to ENSEP above. When cast on an enchantment which can only be powered by stones dedicated to it, that enchantment gains +100% efficiency.

This stacks with "Synergize Stone" so the +200% creates a 1:3 ratio, although it would be possible to skip step 3 (synergizing a stone) to just get x2 (a new option).

This costs the same as step 3 (double the cost of 1/2/4) so getting x2 from 1/2/3 is cheaper than going the 1/2/4/5 route, making the latter mostly just appealing for stacking the benefits.

08-31-2020, 03:06 PM	#13
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Is there a fixed version of the Scroll enchantment? Another issue with manastone/powerstone exploits is the x2 and x3 tricks... These "attach to a magic item" things on M70 are basically FREE ... but I'm wondering if maybe we could require some kind of enchantment ==sto actually get that relationship between them. I'm thinking two-sided, one to modify how manastone/powerstone works, the other to modify how the spell linking to them works. These would be sort of like "Limiting Enchantments" since they restrict what either spell can normally do, but also a boosting enchantment since the end result is it makes the output of powerstones/manastones more efficient. step 1: two variations of "Dedicate Stone to Enchantment" which will create a "Dedicated Non-Attuned Stone". Only the stone needs to be present (range penalties are calculated to it). You must know the spell you're dedicating it to, but it can work for any particular item holding that enchantment. UNLESS the other is present, in which case you can dedicate it solely to that. "Dedicate Powerstone to Enchantment" (cost 5% of enchantment + 5 per energy in Powerstone, or 200 whichever is less) prevents a powerstone from being used in any way except to power a particular enchantment in an item that it is touching. It will usually be ATTACHED to keep it constantly touching. "Dedicate Manastone to Enchantment" (cost 1% of enchantment +1 per energy in powerstone, or 40, whichever is less) same as above except you're using a limited power supply so it's 1/5 the cost NOTE ONE: for stones with 2+ energy you can cast it ALL AT ONCE to limit the entire stone, or you can cast it in levels. It is more energy efficient to do it all at once, but the lower per-casting cost for divided casting is more feasible for many mages NOTE TWO: this prep gives no added efficiency, but is rather a prerequisite for the followup enchantments which then endow the efficiency. The only advantage to this is if you don't want your powerstones to be usable for purposes other than powering a magic item, in case someone got access to it. They could still use it, but only if they knew specifically which item to use it for. That's why the option of it being cheaper than Limit's usual 200 is proposed. NOTE THREE: this must be cast multiple times for each enchantment you want to link the stone to. This allows it to fuel multiple spells in the case of an item carrying multiple enchantments. These spells do not interfere with one another. The 200 cap is based on the cost of the "Limit" enchantment, since that's really all it's doing at this point. Applying 20% of the cost (40 energy) seems reasonable for Manastone since you're only limiting how a non-rechargeable source can be used. Another (canon?) option might to just apply the 85% "Temporary Enchantment" discount to Limit: this would reduce Limit to 30 energy and is actually canon BUT: this means the limit only applies one time and then leaves, so it would leave your Manastone un-limited for future use if you didn't use up all the energy. It is not legal to apply the 85% discount to Manastone/Powerstone themselves as they are not among the list of opted-in exceptions to the baseline ban on applying TE to meta/enchantment college. That said: there probably isn't any game balance problem with allowing that for Powerstone at higher levels. 1) Powerstone 1 usable 1 time is equal to Manastone 1, so you should pay the usual 25% cost (5 instead of 20, or 20 instead of 80) instead of 15% cost 2) Powerstone 2 usable 1 time is INFERIOR to Manastone 1: it can only fuel a single spell of 1 or 2 energy, while Manastone 2 has the option of fueling TWO spells costing 1 energy apiece. 3) the flexibility of Manastone (maximum uses = level of manastone) vs one-use powerstone grows with extra levels, making 15% cost vs 25% cost a lot more logical. As for the first level: I actually think it's okay to allow the creation of a 1-use powerstone (so long as the ENTIRE stone is gone, not just levels equal to whatever amount of energy you used) for cheaper, because where paying 5 energy for manastone 1 instead of 3 energy for OUPS is valuable is when you aspire to later upgrade that to a more-flexible multi-use powerstone. It seems wrong to allow the -85% Temporary Enchantment discount on Manastone though since it's energy is already temporary (doesn't recharge) so that ought only to be based on the higher powerstone costs... There is still technically a drawback to it (Manastone 10 could be used to power 10 spells, OUMS can only cast 1 spell of 1-10 energy) but the end result is equal to something you'd get by limiting a powerstone to finite uses, so it shouldn't be allowed. To be worth only 15% cost it seems necessary to make powerstones "all or nothing" because "only the levels I use expires" for powerstones would just make it equivalent to manastone but costing less. Or actually WORSE because powerstones start off empty ("becomes an uncharged powerstone") whereas manastones presumably starts off fully charged (M127 says Charge Powerstone "does not work on Manastones" so if it didn't begin charged, there's no plausible way to charge it) What might actually be interesting is if we actually altered the spell tree a bit. Manastone would be the baseline ("give an option capability of holding mana") and then make "Charge Manastone" a very expensive spell (much worse than the 3:1 ratio for CPS) Then to upgrade manastone into powerstone it'd be something like "Draw Mana from Hex" Then if you had that, you could cast the cheaper version of Charge Manastone (classic Charge Powerstone) which costs less since in addition to your own personal energy it is drawing upon future mana-draws to create a sort of point-debt. With this approach, I am suggesting we do away with this usual policy: If a dedicated Powerstone is removed from a magical item, the magical item is automatically broken and loses its enchantment, but the Powerstone is intact, and becomes a “normal” Powerstone again. Anyway getting back to the "Dedicate Stone" stuff: if that becomes a problem later on (mage who made it wants to use the stone for generic use like casting his own spells by hand) then they can just do "Remove Enchantment". But anyway the followup (to get the x2 or x3 efficiencies) would then be to target the enchantments in the item to match up to the powerstone, so that both spells in synergy create the discount. step 2: two variations of "Attune Enchantment to Stone": "Attune Enchantment to Powerstone" (same cost as Dedicate Powerstone to Enchantment) "Attune Enchantment to Manastone (same cost as Dedicate Manastone to Enchantment) This step is done to prepare for the followup spells. It requires both the enchanted item and the stone it's attuning to to be present. If enchanter is not touching one or either item, sum the distance caster is from each item respectively to calculate penalties. They do not need to be touching or attached, although if they are not, ALSO add the distance between the items as a skill penalty (ie it is easier to enchant a staff+stone both 1 yard in front of you at -2 to skill, than to enchant a staff 1 yard in front and a stone 1 yard behind at -4 to skill. step 3: two variations of "Synergize Stone to Enchantment" (Synergize Powerstone and Synergize Manastone) cost is DOUBLE either of preceding 2 pairs, effect is getting the +100% output (1 energy from stone = 2 for spell) step 4 "Exclude Non-Stone Enchantment Power" : this limits an enchantment in an item (must be cast multiple times for items with multiple enchantments) so that spells cast by it (per other colleges) or through it (per staff) cannot draw energy from the caster's HP/FP, only from manastones or powerstones which have been attuned to it as in step 1. This follows the usual rules so they cannot be used in concert (maximum 1 powerstone or manastone can be tapped to fuel a spell at a time) but the item can, for either maintaining a spell or casting new spells, switch which powerstone or manastone it draws upon. This is effectively equivalent to "No External Energy" limitation from Thaumatology on the item's magery. same as steps 1 or 2, half of step 3 step 5 "Synergize Enchantment to Stone" is a followup pair to ENSEP above. When cast on an enchantment which can only be powered by stones dedicated to it, that enchantment gains +100% efficiency. This stacks with "Synergize Stone" so the +200% creates a 1:3 ratio, although it would be possible to skip step 3 (synergizing a stone) to just get x2 (a new option). This costs the same as step 3 (double the cost of 1/2/4) so getting x2 from 1/2/3 is cheaper than going the 1/2/4/5 route, making the latter mostly just appealing for stacking the benefits.