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Old 08-14-2019, 03:50 AM   #48
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: A Question of Strength.

Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I think that the hard upper boundary is strictly based on ST, skill has no effect other than making you more likely to reach the boundary.
I disagree with the strictly (as previous mentioned) but I certainly agree with it being the primary factor (also previously mentioned)

But leaving that aside in GURPS system terms is that not the effect that Stat and Skill gives, ie the bell curve just moves along a bit to make the statistically likely max lifts higher thanks to Skill?

Caveat being you have to limit max skill to get a maximum (but frankly unlimited or extremely high skills causes realism problems in general not just here).

I.e take the previously mentioned ST8 Skill +20 lifter. Do I think that will give unrealistic results, yeah absolutely! But IMO the issue is Skill +20 not the concept of Skill value adding to ST in the way the system currently works in abstract.

I guess this is really a question of what of you set the maximum at and thus where you max out skill to allow for it. Or just put a hard ceiling on max lift no matter if the a higher skill could give result that beat it (but see below in regards to the difficulty in setting that limit, and above in terms of the concept of it)

Here we get into the perennial stat normalisation debate, and splitting out systems in abstract and systems operating within imposed limits, and what both give as results, though.

Ultimately both these points might be down to a matter of perspective. When it comes to "realism" I only really care about system results as they happen, and where "realistic" inputs given "realistic" results. I'm less fussed about how the system works in all possible combinations of all possible inputs. (and for unrealistic inputs I'll just take results consistent with my sense of verisimilitude at the time!)

Although yes I realise defining "realistic" here is often going to be a matter of opinion when it comes to doing it at the games table.


Either way as I said earlier to make this work as a game system you are still going to have to come up with some theoretical maximum lifts presumably for each GURPS ST rating based on real life theoretical maximums. Now you said already that would take some research. But as I responded via the point about theoretical fastest 100m sprints that actually gets very hard and more importantly is inherently based on conjecture and theory. Especially if you are doing one for each ST score even more so considering that the ST stat is a very broad catch-all rating for a lot of things and can itself be derived from different combinations of ST related advantages.

e.g say you have theoretical maximum over head press figure for a ST12 person that you are happy with. But would that value change for someone with Base ST 10 and Arm ST+2? Or what about Base ST14 and lifting ST-2.

That leaves aside real world factors like the difference between a 5'6" ST12 lifter doing an overhead press and a 6'6" ST12 lifter doing so. Which is the kind of real world factor those theoretical best possible result studies get into, i.e. I think this idea of trying to set absolute maximums basically becomes a can of worms v.quickly. Because by definition when you are talking about theoretical maximums the amount of contributory and thus potentially limiting factors that come into play increases (basically at that level every relevant thing matters). Which is why a lot of this work tend to involves as a starting premise taking the best real life attributes of different athletes and combining them in as realistic manner as possible, in an attempt to build the most perfect but still possible athlete for the matter at hand.
Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation.
*not too high of course

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-14-2019 at 07:16 AM.
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