[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

A huge IA (say, one that does a flat 220 damage) will be enormously more expensive for +50%, likely more expensive than actual Mind Control.

True, I think the problem is that you can just layer low damage attacks to add up to a big damage one. As pointed out in khorboth's thread, you can use No Signature to attack with impunity.

Normally with No Sig, someone at least knows they are under attack ("something is hurting me! I just don't know what!") and can do stuff like try to run behind cover in hopes that whoever is attacking them might not be able to continue.

There's no warning at all though if the damage isn't actually doing anyting (yet) which effectively makes it operate like "No active defense +300%".

Perhaps that ought to be mandatory for no-sig delayed attacks?

Or else maybe the victim of a Delayed Attack should show some kind of symptom that they've been attacked, other than feeling damage?

Something like "your body is flashing red!".

I think No Signature is meant to represent "there's no muzzle flash or bang to indicate where the attack came from, who made the attack" but not necessarily "the effect of the attack is undetectable"

People being injured are generally detecting it after all, whether they're lit on fire, knocked back, feeling a light tapping, etc.

Something along those lines ought to accompany something like "a sticky timed grenade has affixed itself to you".

If there isn't something like this then it ignores the "way to neutralize it" requirement that Delay has. You can't reasonable neutralize an attack you don't even KNOW about.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

C) Certain 'abilities' require Delay to even work. For instance, if you can make death cookies and put them somewhere, that would be Delay. Considering that you can just bake poisoned cookies, it might even be a little expensive.

In this case, the visible effect is "there is something that looks, feels, smells, and tastes like a cookie".

IMO if you had that with the standard built-in range (100 yards) then the effect is something like "there is a BOOM and you see a cookie fling through the air, and it lands on the ground!"

Whereas if someone buys No Signature -25% it's just "a cookie materializes 100 yards away, nobody knows where it came from" but there should still be an actual cookie so people know something weird is going on.

Shooting a cookie onto the ground is targeting a HEX (easier +4) and if the requirement is "someone must eat my cookie but it will ignore DR" (I would price this like scent-based -20% and apply a 'must taste too' limit -20% total -40%, should be cheaper) then you either hope someone picks up your cookie and eats it OR you'd have to target an open mouth instead of the hex which is probably easier than hitting an eye (-9) but harder than hitting a jaw (-6) with the jaw HP providing 'cover DR' if the mouth is closed.

Cookies suddenly appearing in your mouth would be an indicator of something strange. You'd be required to bite down on them, so the countermeasure is "spit them out", don't bite.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

D) You must specify a way to neutralize the Delay and work with the GM to do so. A delayed heart attack might be able to be solved with off-the-shelf heart medicine.

But you'd need to RP how they actually know what the attack will do, and sneak that medicine without the master becoming aware and triggering it before you could take the pill.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

E) The attack is only really guaranteed to work on Cowards. Anyone else might just decide to deny you. It's not perfect Mind Control.

I would not limit it to them. B129 "refuse to endanger yourself unless threatened with greater danger!" actually requires threats like these to compel cowards into dangerous situations, whereas non-cowards can be compelled into dangerous situations with motivations other than "avoid danger".

That doesn't mean "confront lesser danger to avoid greater danger" is a motive which doesn't apply to non-cowards.

If anything I think this would motivate anyone except B146 "On the Edge" where failure means you can't back down from confronting life-threatening situations. You get reaction bonuses from "Individuals who value bravery over self-preservation"

B125 gives a bonus to initimidation/interrogation for callous people who use threats/torture. I imagine that would apply to people who regular demonstrated their ability to "trigger death" of people they had planted their triggerable attacks on beforehand.

B202's description of those two gives a "severe threats" bonus to interrogation and a "display of strength of supernatural powers" bonus to intimidation, so what ultimately determines if someone cooperates is their IQ/Will/Fearlessness chain.

Even in the case of "Unfaceable" (won't fail the will check) it should still be possible to intellectually choose to cooperate ("I am not afraid to die, but I value my life")

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I could see it dropping in price to something like +250% if you can only switch around types of delays.

I forgot: using "Alternative Enhancements" it's 1/5 cost (sort of like +20%) to have two you can switch between, so that might be +60% to specify two triggers.

So you might for example define:
1) trigger 1 is hearing attacker shout "heal one!"
2) trigger 2 is hearing attacker shout "heal two!"

Then you could use the 1st trigger when you plant a 1 FP heal for 2 HP and the 2nd trigger when you plant a 2 FP heal for 4 HP.

the x10 cost (+900%) of "Variable Enhancement" is effectively like taking +20% 5x9=45 times. So if you wanted to define 44 distinct triggers that could be cheaper.

I agree though that if it was limited to JUST programming delays that it should be limited, kind of like how modular abilities is cheaper when it's limited.

The x10 for Variable Enhancement is after all probably based on Cosmic Powers' cost for slots. Although weirdly it doesn't have the 'one second per ability' requirement baked in.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Considering that for +190% you can get No Nuisance Rolls, buy off the daily penalty, and get Reduced Cost 2, it seems perfectly fair. Or just get Reduced Cost 10 +200% and No Daily Penalties +50% for a likely better Healing.

I don't know how to fairly compare it to these though: a big advance to delay is you can prep your allies at close range in a safe place, and then not need to go out into danger with them (or use up your attack maneuver to hit them with heal beams) to keep their HP up during deadly battle.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I think it's because, generally speaking, the easier the trigger the more likely it is to go off when you don't want it to, and the harder the trigger, the less likely you can get it to go off when you want it to.

I guess the issue is how hard something is compared to player abilities.

"explode when there is an ultrasonic shriek" is for example much easier for a player with Ultrasonic Speech himself, than one who has to rely on coaxing his pet fruitbat to scream instead

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The Delay seems to be the teamwork power. You effectively spent +50% to lets your power work alongside a later, unspecified attack. Considering that you can't use the attack directly I'd say it's perfectly fair. You'd have to attack a target twice to do any damage and they still have even just a second to be able to remove the first attack (or you spent points elsewhere to be able to attack twice in one turn easily enough).

I wonder how easy the countermeasure needs to be though, and if maybe we should have versatile values depending on that (maybe somehow related to 'can be stolen' gadget limitations?)

For example a delayed burning attack might be:
1) A covers B in liquid gasoline, A must trigger it by using a non-delay burning attack or throw a match at them
2) A teleports a stick of dynamite into B's hands. It is also triggered by a burning attack lighting the fuse

In (1) you would need to go through a complex countermeasure of washing off the gasoline, undressing, etc. (~60 seconds)

In (2) you would just need to throw the stick of dynamite away (1 second)