[JulianLW]

Varyon, I think you're making a lot of the same points I'm making.

Originally Posted by Varyon

An unsupported DF Swashbuckler isn't in very good shape there, anyway. I suppose one with more points in Acrobatics has a better chance of pulling off an Acrobatic Dodge and Drop to get out of the way.

Instead of pumping more points into Broadsword, a smarter build for the Swashbuckler who wants to survive an area attack is to buy a higher level of Acrobatics, Enhanced Doge, and higher Basic Speed. Or Flying Leap or the Great Void power-up. Or have a large shield for cover. All on that DF template.

Originally Posted by Varyon

A DF Swashbuckler without a Ghost Weapon enchantment or similar is useless against those anyway. If he/she does have such, the one with Rapier-30 is in better shape than the one with Rapier-22 and slightly-higher secondary skills.

True. I was thinking of the Wizard-Hunter power-up, but that helps you fight through Shields and Force Domes. He'd need a magical friend who could deal with this problem - or an enchanted weapon.

Originally Posted by Varyon

The high-Rapier DF Swashbuckler has a better chance of both getting past the target's defenses and pulling off a strike to armor chinks/gaps. If those aren't options, and he/she lacks some sort of armor piercing enchantment, the more-balanced DF Swashbuckler is likely similarly useless (although if the opponent has high DR but not great grappling skills, the more-balanced character might have slightly higher Wrestling to restrain the target).

There's also just more ST - and power blow - to beat the DR. And not all DR has chinks.

Originally Posted by Varyon

A balanced DF Swashbuckler might have slightly higher Dodge, which would be an advantage here, but will largely be reliant on support from the rest of the party to get past such an encounter.

Yep: Higher Dodge. Which means a higher DX and/or higher HT or Enhanced Speed or Dodge. Or, for DF-style missile attacks, Shield skill or Parry Missile Weapons. And again, those teammates.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think the DF Swashbuckler is terribly perceptive to start with, and is again reliant on the rest of the party to avoid getting backstabbed.

Buy Danger Sense or higher Per. And yet again, he'll need a friend....

Originally Posted by Varyon

If you're playing a game where "sword-guy" isn't a legitimate role in the party, you're SoL regardless. If it is a legitimate role, pumping all your points into a single skill can make you ridiculously competent in said role.

The point Gnome was originally making, I think, was that the Swashbuckler buys up Broadsword to ridiculously high levels and wipes up the floor with all the challenges so that the other templates are left twiddling their thumbs. And that's not true at all.

The Swashbuckler is a specialist, sure, but if he buys up Broadsword to ridiculously high levels, he's probably leaving himself vulnerable to some other really basic attack. I don't think, as Gnome was arguing, that "pumping all your points into one skill" (as you put it) lets him "graduate" beyond the monsters he's likely to encounter - unless your GM only throws a certain kind of melee monster at you.

And no level of Broadsword makes a Swashbuckler so competent that he doesn't need help, as you pointed out again here.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I think the issue is more that putting [80] into any one skill makes you so incredibly competent (Default+25) that any encounter within your niche that the rest of the party can participate at all is a cakewalk for you, while anything that challenges you will wipe the floor with the rest of the party. Sure, it's perfectly fine - desirable, even - that the Swashbuckler be better at melee combat than the Scout, but it's not so great if the rest of the party is functionally useless in melee combat so long as the Swashbuckler is around.

Personally, I wouldn't build such a character, and wouldn't allow one to be designed, without any sort of mechanical disincentives (just the classic GM veto). For those who would rather have mechanical disincentives, I'm certainly not going to tell them doing so is Hurting Wrong Fun.

The character you're describing - who is so hands-down better at his niche that the other players are useless? That guy is built for ONE SINGLE SCENARIO: opponents it's easy to get right up close to and hack with a sword - i.e. opponents made of flesh with low natural DR who are not using ranged weapons. He does great at that one scenario.

But the idea that buying up one skill really high to the exclusion of all the other options on your template is going to make your character supreme is, I think, a flawed strategy for most DF games. The guy who ignores buying more ST and Striking ST, a higher Per, a higher Speed and better Dodge, Danger Sense, HT, etc.... That guy will get killed quicker, in most games, I suspect, than the one with a more balanced point-spending strategy - who wants to survive a dose of poison, be able to dodge or block an attack he can't parry, be able to knock down a larger or a better-armored foe (or one without chinks), be able to sense danger, be able to run away faster, etc....

In most games, I strongly suspect, the guy who dumps all his CP into Broadsword is going to get hosed sooner than the guy who spreads his points around more evenly.