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Anaraxes · 04-14-2020, 05:03 AM

Strictly speaking, even if Weapon Master were an ability granted by the power in question (that is, there's a Power Modifier discount that applies to the WM purchase), that Power Talent wouldn't help combat skill rolls.

A Power Talent helps with activation for the power's abilities. Weapon Master doesn't have any activation rolls. It's always on and always successful, granting its damage bonuses and so on without a roll to see if WM works this time. So there's nothing for the Talent to benefit. Those combat skill rolls vs. Broadsword, etc., that themselves benefit from WM aren't abilities of the power. (Compare: if you buff yourself with a Magic spell, you don't suddenly start applying Magery to your Bow attacks. The skill roll for the buff benefits from Magery; other skills now enjoying a bonus don't add Magery again.)

If you wanted WM to have a random activation roll for some reason (say, this time there doesn't happen to be a convenient and amenable ancestral warrior spirit to possess you to direct your blade), you'd need to add a Limitation like Unreliable. That would give the ability an activation roll which would ordinarily benefit from a Power Talent. But the description of PT is pretty clear that the bonus doesn't apply to work around rolls required as part of Limitations like Unreliable.

I agree with the other posters that the most important factor in deciding whether or not the PM applies to the WM Advantage is the narrative concept. Do bladesigners train in wielding their weapon, no doubt learning their bladesongs as part of that training? Or is bladesigning a supernatural ability some people have where they're just ordinary people until the Blademaster descends upon them, possessing them to grant them the ability to fight? On a practical level, consider what happens when the bladesinger wanders into a no-mana zone or gets hit with a Neutralize ability ("Dispel Magic", being inside of a pentagram to get cut off from those warrior spirits, etc). Do they lose their WM training in such a case? Do they forget show to use a sword at all (trying to shoehorn the skill into having a PM of its own on the skill cost to justify calling it an "ability" of the power -- which I'm not even sure is legit)?

"Being part of a power" isn't the reason abilities usually get a discount for having a PM. The conventional -10% comes from the existence of countermeasures and other ability-disabling pitfalls. It's just a convenient shorthand for saying "any ability of this power must have these Limitations".

Also remember that the range of applicability of a Power Talent affects its cost. For a talent that affects all combat skills, I'd certainly put it in at least the 10 points/level bracket -- and maybe 15 just because of the importance of combat skills, regardless of number. A straight DX bonus affecting all physical skills (while singing, bladesingers get faster, better able to leap onto tables and swing from chandeliers, etc) would be 15.

04-14-2020, 05:03 AM	#8
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Weapon Master as part of a power Strictly speaking, even if Weapon Master were an ability granted by the power in question (that is, there's a Power Modifier discount that applies to the WM purchase), that Power Talent wouldn't help combat skill rolls. A Power Talent helps with activation for the power's abilities. Weapon Master doesn't have any activation rolls. It's always on and always successful, granting its damage bonuses and so on without a roll to see if WM works this time. So there's nothing for the Talent to benefit. Those combat skill rolls vs. Broadsword, etc., that themselves benefit from WM aren't abilities of the power. (Compare: if you buff yourself with a Magic spell, you don't suddenly start applying Magery to your Bow attacks. The skill roll for the buff benefits from Magery; other skills now enjoying a bonus don't add Magery again.) If you wanted WM to have a random activation roll for some reason (say, this time there doesn't happen to be a convenient and amenable ancestral warrior spirit to possess you to direct your blade), you'd need to add a Limitation like Unreliable. That would give the ability an activation roll which would ordinarily benefit from a Power Talent. But the description of PT is pretty clear that the bonus doesn't apply to work around rolls required as part of Limitations like Unreliable. I agree with the other posters that the most important factor in deciding whether or not the PM applies to the WM Advantage is the narrative concept. Do bladesigners train in wielding their weapon, no doubt learning their bladesongs as part of that training? Or is bladesigning a supernatural ability some people have where they're just ordinary people until the Blademaster descends upon them, possessing them to grant them the ability to fight? On a practical level, consider what happens when the bladesinger wanders into a no-mana zone or gets hit with a Neutralize ability ("Dispel Magic", being inside of a pentagram to get cut off from those warrior spirits, etc). Do they lose their WM training in such a case? Do they forget show to use a sword at all (trying to shoehorn the skill into having a PM of its own on the skill cost to justify calling it an "ability" of the power -- which I'm not even sure is legit)? "Being part of a power" isn't the reason abilities usually get a discount for having a PM. The conventional -10% comes from the existence of countermeasures and other ability-disabling pitfalls. It's just a convenient shorthand for saying "any ability of this power must have these Limitations". Also remember that the range of applicability of a Power Talent affects its cost. For a talent that affects all combat skills, I'd certainly put it in at least the 10 points/level bracket -- and maybe 15 just because of the importance of combat skills, regardless of number. A straight DX bonus affecting all physical skills (while singing, bladesingers get faster, better able to leap onto tables and swing from chandeliers, etc) would be 15.