Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
Yeah, but the level of variance is generally much too high. Max lift is slightly variable, but only by a few percent.
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I think in reality training, technique and effort adds a lot, because it's all about using the strength you have as efficiently as possible.
But I kind of agree the way the system implements skill rolls even with the bell curve can put a bit too much variability into these results. However you could argue that of all skill roll results, and it is a RPG game designed to give an in game interesting range of results with skill rolls!
As ever for me one answer is to limit your skills and and stats, to limit how much range the results can give you in terms of expressed end result*. As pointed out getting a 100% increase requires very high skill even by GURSp cinematic levels.
But maybe another way is to bring in the "Trained ST" concept from TG for lifting. Still have skill roll but reduce the MoS benefit to truncate the variability.
However this all said there is one big issue with how we look at the system and try to compare it to reality in these discussions.
In the system it's very simple to separate and individually assess Basic ST, Lifting ST, Lifting Skill, (lifting techs if you use them) Will (when used for lifting EE rolls). In real life it is not only much harder to separate them in the specific action but even more so when developing them. Because when they all go towards the same goal they are hard to split out. Perhaps more relevantly it maybe sometimes they can't be split out in terms of developing them separately!
For instance if you go to the gym with the sole purpose to increase your max overhead press and only your max overhead press. If you are a GURPS character then the GM might say:
"OK after x00 hours in gym you have spent 5CP on a Overhead press technique based on lifting skill"
And yeah OK for a RPG that works time plus CP = an increase in the specific thing you wanted to improve. But in real life if you spend X00 hours lifting heavy weights in a gym even if you solely practice for one lift yes you will improve your real life technique in that specific lift. But you'll likely see at least some improvement in other related areas. In GURPS terms Basic St, lifting St , lifting skill, possibly even will based Lifting EE etc. Especially as improving you body for overhead lifts in the most efficient way possible ins't likely going to just involve overhead pressing things! Your body and ability is an integrated system and it really hard to truely isolate whole body activities off like this, and ultimately that's exactly what the GURPS CP buy system allows you to do at times.
*this is actually another point about RPG system perception vs. reality. In the system we can see what part each bit of system played in getting a final result. We know what the basic BL was and what that means for a lift, what benefit the lift skill in combination with a will based EE roll had in terms of value adding etc. etc. And that's fine that's what an easy to use but detailed system should do!
But In reality we see a strong, skilled and determined lifter pull off a great lift of 360lbs and while we know it combination things it much harder to say "yeah the 1st 200lbs was basic ST, the next 40lbs was thanks to Lifting ST, they'd have added 80lbs with that roll result on just on skill skill, but instead it was 120lb because it was a Skill based EE roll off Will".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl
Basic Speed and Basic Move do not have a +/-30% limitation. I am just showing that it is possible to create a world class athlete without too many points in 4e. The same individual would be capable of pretty good jumps as well, a 50"/100" high jump or a 17'/34' broad jump.
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I think the point here is that the costing of things in CP is a really, really bad way to compare excellence and rarity in RL over a range of activities. Not least because the system concentrates and weights some thing's more than others. So yeah 55CP in system likely does go further creating a world class sprinter than it does world class adventurer. But that doesn't mean anything for judging RL scarcity of either. Because CP is a game mechanic not a real world demographic tool. What it likely means is that sprinting isn't a core activity the system was set up to spends a lot of time and range of relevant abilities defining. Unlike adventuring related ability overall (even if a good adventurer can remove themselves from danger quickly if the need arises!)
You are right there's no overall +/- 30% on both, its +2 on Basic speed and +3 on Move what doesn't help is that they add to each other for a total +5 to Move over what your basic stats give you.
However as always GM interpretation is key, and basically see above regarding splitting things off in RL