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Old 01-09-2021, 04:11 PM   #6
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [Magic] Rooted Feet count as grapple?

*consults B244 and M36*
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Are you Grappled? No.
If you can't move your feet it sure sounds like at least two extremities (feet) are grappled.

Perhaps not extreme as B40's Binding as Technical Grappling 28 says to treat it as grappling the LEGS. The distinction would matter in terms of what suffers active control (-1 to ST per 2 CP) vs referred control (-1 to ST per 4 CP) as pg 5/6 explains.

If designing this as Binding it would probably be Unbreakable but not Engulfing is my guess.

That said: I'm a little fuzzy on what is "feet stuff" vs "leg stuff" though. I'm thinking maybe if you're doing a Stamp Kick that's a foot stuff (must hit with foot) while doing a Knee Strike that's leg stuff? Also maybe if you were trying to dodge an attack targeted at one location or the other?

I imagine much like Binding this would benefit from updating to a Technical Grappling system in some way.

Binding's original function for breaking free was that each turn you could roll ST or Escape vs Binding ST (equal to Binding level +1 per extra layer, unless One-Shot limitation prevents layering)

By comparison Rooted Feet original function was each turn you could roll ST (not Escape) at a -5 penalty vs the "original spell skill roll".

I'm wagering that's intended to mean "write down the Margin of Success when you cast your spell, foe's MoS must tie or exceed it" eh?

Another way to look at that might be to calculate MoS+5 (tally that) and just have that be the target number. Seems like the same but easier book-keeping since you won't have to constantly be subtracting 5.

Needing to win that QC was very all-or-nothing: you could not incrementally get free with sorta-good rolls. That's kind of like how the Regular Contest system Basic used for breaking free of grapples worked though not quite as extreme (doesn't require win+lose .. just win-by-more)

Sort of sounds like Rooted Feet could work approximately like Binding with a level of MoS plus 5 unless my math is off.

Melee weapons only took a -2 penalty (instead of the usual -4 to DX that Basic inflicted for grappled) which could be seen as some kind of limited binding, but I actually wonder if "half the penalty" is some kind of precursor to the Referred Control idea... Douglas do you require this inspiring that in any way?

There's no mention of allies being able to help you get free of Rooted Feet, though in fairness that also seems to be the case for Unbreakable Binding as well: but I think as of TG your allies can attempt to use Break Free attacks not just on grapples affecting them, but any grapple whatsoever?

I could see that not making sense in some cases though, like if the grapple represented something other than a physical object. We are talking about Body Control after all: this could be internal manipulation of muscles which could also explain why the Escape skill isn't mentioned: you can only overpower it.

If we were to approach Rooted Feet via sorcery I'm guessing that'd be some kinda cosmic enhancement (+50%?) on Binding where "binding is muscle manipulation so you can't use Escape and allies can't Break Free, only user" or something like that?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Can you cast Spells? As long as your Skill is high enough you don't need foot movements.
That'd be the makes-senseapproach, but as far as I can tell per Basic you can't make a Concentrate maneuver at all even if grappled by a level 1 (ST 1) binding. IE can't even focus on your purely mental psi power because you're wrapped up by a spider.

B371 had it where any grapple (did not need to be a pin) forbid SIX different maneuver types:
1) Aim
2) Feint
3) Concentrate
4) Wait
5) Attack (Ranged)
6) All-Out Attack (Ranged)
Moves were also conditionally banned if grappled target's ST was less than twice foe's.

Rooted Feet did not go that far (you could still make ranged attacks at full skill, 5 and 6 are fine) which makes a lot of sense really: even if someone has a really good hold of your leg this shouldn't make it IMPOSSIBLE to fire a gun...

RF didn't ban maneuvers 1-4 either...

TG23 luckily under "Disallowed Maneuvers" softened this a bit: Aim/Concentrate requires will rolls penalized by effective trained ST (ie penalized for CP on them: no penalty if you only have a 0 CP grapple on them due to "grapples are mutual" roll) of your grappler, which is kinda weird IMO since it doesn't take into account how that ST relates to your own.

If I were to suggest a tweak for that: since Aim is a DX roll if using on Target (and it's tempting to combine Cole crunch to the max) we can just use standard DX penalties from CP on that instead and forget about a will roll?

This could work for Ranged Combat too...

As for Concentrate: you don't normally roll to do that (concentration is automatic) so let's just make it a basic Will+10 roll to concentrate (because it's so easy) and penalize that Will roll by whatever the "referred control" DX penalties would be.

If the idea is that grappling upsets Aim and Attack (Ranged) more than Attack (Melee) I think there's a way to reflect that...

DX penalties to Will rolls for Concentrate could actually be seen as IQ penalties (you can't apply your IQ well when someone is grabbing your head or body in an appreciable way: you're temporarily distracted, like Shock withour injury)

This would then affect your Per, and if you require Per checks to set up your attacks (ie threat recognition), this compromises ranged combat more because of the speed/range penalties they'd deal with. Per checks could be required (and perhaps influence) the DX rolls made for either an Aim or Attack (Ranged) maneuver as "Dodge This" has them required to set up active defenses?

Where hit location matters, probably makes sense to consider Concentrate as something the head does, unless a creature has No Head. So if you want to befuddle a spell caster it'd make more sense to grap their skull than to grab their ankle.

Spellcasting would also suffer double here: not just a penalized Will roll to begin concentrate, but potentially a penalty for the IQ check which you make when finished casting too, if still grappled at that time.

Unlike grappling penalties to DX (you can be completely immobilized) there should be some kind of ceiling here (much like with Shock) of how much your IQ rolls will be penalized: you could be completely pinned like a mummy and still able to concentrate despite that distraction, after all.

Any IQ penalties beyond "I'm tied up and can't move" should be reflected by "my bindings are crushing me, causing injuries and IQ penalties from shock".

If we were to have IQ penalties without a ceiling I'd actually rather see that for shock (unlimited influence of high pain) than for "my immobility is distracting" because you can only get so immobile before it ceases to matter.

In fact if you don't KNOW you're being bound up (perhaps you lack tactile sensation?) it wouldn't be distracting at all. That could be a benefit of the "Insensate" 0pt feature or "Numb" disadvantage.

This could make Numb useful as a Controllable Disadvantage: if you can willingly numb your foot then you don't need to feel that someone is grappling it. The knowledge that they are could still be distracting though... but you at least don't have the sensation.

Grappling initially did not impact the active defenses of victims in basic (except to prevent retreats) but Martial Arts floated the idea that the -4 DX results in -2 parry/block and -1 to dodge.

Rooted Feet doesn't do a static penalty (B17 encumbrance also uses static penalties like MA has grappling do) but instead HALVES dodge... like being below 1/3 HP (B327) or below 1/3 FP (B328) except in those situations you round up while RF rounds down.

Halving both Move and Dodge in those situations has always seemed strange since it doesn't reduce Basic Speed which means you still react just as quickly in combat... I guess the reason they don't just halve Basic Speed is because that could be avoided by just buying up move/dodge separately from speed... but you could always just say "halve speed and any extra dodge or move" right?

The problem with a generic dodge penalty for Rooted Feet to me is that this should probably fluctuate based on where you're targeted... like you shouldn't be able to dodge an attack aimed at your feet at all (because you can't move them) while there should be a heavier penalty to dodge attacks aimed at your legs (because their mobility is the next most compromised) then a moderate penalty to dodge attacks at the torso, fewer penalties to dodge attacks aimed at arms, and most-minor-of-all penalties to dodge attacks aimed at hands.

That's one tweak that'd be cool to see for Referred Control: instead of half-for-all-other-parts you could do a graded system like
2/3 for adjacent parts (legs, for feet)
1/2 for adjacent-to-adjacent (torso, for feet)
1/3 for a2a2a (arms, for feet)
1/4 for a2a2a2a (hands, for feet)
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
Affliction No Legs: Sessile maybe?
But it gives you no penalties to melee or dodge, so you may need something added to it for the right effect.
dodge is halved

Last edited by Plane; 01-09-2021 at 04:29 PM.
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