Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - should it be possible for an attack on you that your ally parries to spoil your Aim?

Plane · 05-21-2022, 02:13 PM

Noticed something along these lines happening in the 'Ghost Force' animated series.

https://youtu.be/uevvwglgtrw

Myst shouts out 'spectral bow!' while drawing her bowstring, and then it changes to her POV as she focuses her arrow's tip at Raijin.

It cuts back to him observing this and he has time to fire lightning at her. It looks like she's going to be hit but Krush creates an ice shield (I assume this is like combining Sacrificial Parry with Power Parry ?) to stop the lightning.

The key thing I'm interested in here is how even though the attack doesn't hit, being attacked seems to have spoiled her aim - you see she twists to her left, actually pulling the arrow out out of the bow string.

You see her lift her right leg to cover her torso while her right arm covers her face. It's a pretty instinctive posture that makes a lot of sense when blocking area attacks like explosions.

In the process of that defense the bow is pointed straight up in the air and she needs to re-knock her arrow and this time wastes less time by not shouting out her attack (guess it wasn't necessary) or spending time aiming (maybe that "Quick Aim" technique someone wrote in pyramid?) and manages to fire.

- -

Campaigns has basic rules for active defenses during aiming with ranged weapons:

Active Defense: Any, but you automatically spoil your aim and lose all accumulated benefits

Cole's Pyramid 3-77 "On Target" variations of Aim also had a couple other situations for Committed ("may dodge at -2, he may not parry or block") or All-Out ("no defense at all") aim maneuvers, but what remains constant is that actually choosing to defend will spoil the aim and the bonuses.

I don't know if there's any way around this (able to parry while keeping your aim) for a character. I figure a mage with enchanted weapons could pull this off (either Dancing Shield or the Dancing Weapon + Defending Weapon combo) since it's not technically them making the parries, so it shouldn't spoil the aim.

Presumably any ally doing a Sacrificial Dodge or Sacrificial Parry or Sacrificial Block on your behalf would have this benefit to - attack is stopped and since you didn't make the active defense, your aim is not spoiled.

- -

This begins to get into meta-gaming territory though because if a sacrificial defense from an ally fails, you still have the opportunity to defend. So now, not only do you know in advance if an attack will hit you before choosing to defend, you ALSO know if your ally will stop the attack in time, before you commit to a defense.

In the case of Ghost Force, I expect Myst did not realize that Krush's ice would block the lightning in time - she was covering herself because she expected the lightning to be hit.

If we used the "Restricted Dodge Against Firearms" (pg 17 of Tactical Shooting) it doesn't even seem to be legal to dodge firearms while using the normal aim maneuver, where to dodge the ranged attack of a single foe you're aware of requires "All-Out Defense, Attack, Change Posture, Defensive Attack, Feint, Move, or Move and Attack" meaning t would be illegal to dodge firearms while using the maneuvers of Aim / Committed Attack / Concentrate / Evaluate (AOA goes without saying) which makes me wonder if "I'm turtling up so the lightning hits my arms instead of my face" could count as some kind of parry...

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I think this may get into the territory of optional rules I have seen done for GURPS regarding pre-emptive defenses, where a defense can be declared when an attack is declared, but before the attack is rolled, so that you don't know whether it would hit or miss.

This would also (since attack rolls are made before sacrificial defense rolls) mean you wouldn't know whether or not an ally's sacrificial defense would succeed either.

This concept works for melee or ranged but it seems especially useful in ranged combat, and that's why I think only ranged combat has addressed it in the core books.

The earliest I can remember is in T-Bone's 2004 "Gulliver" at http://www.gamesdiner.com/GULLIVER/B...laringDefenses where he posited the default is declaring defenses before the attack (ie you waste a parry, or in the case of aiming a bow, spoil your aim) but that you could do "last second" defenses (I'd probably rephrase that "last instant" since all defenses technically happen in the 'last second', that's an entire maneuver!) at a penalty.

T-Bone's proposed penalties were basically some arbitrary doubling which applied equally to both defenses:

"1 for a melee attack, -2 for a thrown weapon, -4 for a missile like an arrow, -8 for a bullet, or -16 for a hypervelocity"

- -

July 2013 we saw Cole do a similar approach Pyramid 3-57's Gunplay (On Target) pg 29 did this under "Intercepting the Projectile" except instead of being arbitrary he drew directly from the Speed/Range chart to get his penalties (halved for active defenses) to get penalties for blocking/parrying.

The numbers were eerily similar showing T-Bone had pretty decent instincts - throwing axes/knives/hatchets were -2, javelins were -3, medieval arrow -4, modern arrow -5, pistol bullet -7, rifle bullet -8. The most major difference is Cole halved these penalties for dodges.

Cole's method of avoiding the penalties via pre-emptive defense declaration only appears to be allowed for blocks - you take the speed penalty if you declare after the hit roll, but if you declare prior to the hit roll "a Block roll – unpenalized – should be permitted"

This doesn't exactly help w/ the Myst dilemma since she's not using a shield, but clearly does "turtle up" into a fetal position to protect her face/vitals against the lightning using her limbs (thus spoiling her aim).

I don't think this should be chocked up to a Mental Stun from a Fright Check because it seems conceivable someone immune to fear would still flinch from dangerous attacks to cover vulnerable areas (face+vitals) using their limbs. Maybe they'd have more control over whether or not they chose to do that, but they could still do that, and there'd be some benefit do doing it pre-emptively (soon as you saw the lightning being prepped) rather than waiting until you know if/where it will hit you (or if your ally will intercede)

- -

I feel like I'm forgetting another approach to this pre-emptive defenses thing that someone else did that could solve the situation... like to resolve why Myst spoiled her bow+arrow aim turtling up from Raijin's lightning, wasn't there something about using limbs as improvised shields but only as cover (take HP to limbs instead of face/vitals) rather than nullifying the attack (nothing takes damage) ?

The way I figure, considering the small diameter of some bucklers, if you completely flexed your limbs (ie thigh+shin or forearm+upperarm held almost parallel) it could emulate the surface area of a buckler in terms of being able to "block" ranged attacks.

Unlike a buckler it couldn't deflect an arrow damage-free (bucklers have hard DR for arrow tips to glance off of, flesh doesn't) but it should still be able to provide it's HP as cover DR so that the arrow needs to pierce the muscles of your limb to hit your face or thigh.

This might be harder to pull off (ie it's easier for you to move your outstretched hand to get the buckler in the path than it is to turtle your entire arm in to cover your face) but should still be possible.

I figure that's what Myst was trying to do since she lacked a shield to block the lightning (plus she probably didn't know which parts of her it would hit, which is why both the arm AND leg was used to cover face+vitals) but I don't know how you'd represent this in terms of applying GURPS penalties.

I know you can lift people and use them via your Shield skill as an Improvised Shield, so if you can do that with some guy you lifted by the shirt (rested against your forearm) you could probably do it with just your bare forearm, except probably at a penalty since your foreamr is probably narrower in terms of SM than the guy you just lifted (unless were a Cave Troll lifting a Hobbit)

05-21-2022, 02:13 PM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	should it be possible for an attack on you that your ally parries to spoil your Aim? Noticed something along these lines happening in the 'Ghost Force' animated series. https://youtu.be/uevvwglgtrw Myst shouts out 'spectral bow!' while drawing her bowstring, and then it changes to her POV as she focuses her arrow's tip at Raijin. It cuts back to him observing this and he has time to fire lightning at her. It looks like she's going to be hit but Krush creates an ice shield (I assume this is like combining Sacrificial Parry with Power Parry ?) to stop the lightning. The key thing I'm interested in here is how even though the attack doesn't hit, being attacked seems to have spoiled her aim - you see she twists to her left, actually pulling the arrow out out of the bow string. You see her lift her right leg to cover her torso while her right arm covers her face. It's a pretty instinctive posture that makes a lot of sense when blocking area attacks like explosions. In the process of that defense the bow is pointed straight up in the air and she needs to re-knock her arrow and this time wastes less time by not shouting out her attack (guess it wasn't necessary) or spending time aiming (maybe that "Quick Aim" technique someone wrote in pyramid?) and manages to fire. - - Campaigns has basic rules for active defenses during aiming with ranged weapons: Active Defense: Any, but you automatically spoil your aim and lose all accumulated benefits Cole's Pyramid 3-77 "On Target" variations of Aim also had a couple other situations for Committed ("may dodge at -2, he may not parry or block") or All-Out ("no defense at all") aim maneuvers, but what remains constant is that actually choosing to defend will spoil the aim and the bonuses. I don't know if there's any way around this (able to parry while keeping your aim) for a character. I figure a mage with enchanted weapons could pull this off (either Dancing Shield or the Dancing Weapon + Defending Weapon combo) since it's not technically them making the parries, so it shouldn't spoil the aim. Presumably any ally doing a Sacrificial Dodge or Sacrificial Parry or Sacrificial Block on your behalf would have this benefit to - attack is stopped and since you didn't make the active defense, your aim is not spoiled. - - This begins to get into meta-gaming territory though because if a sacrificial defense from an ally fails, you still have the opportunity to defend. So now, not only do you know in advance if an attack will hit you before choosing to defend, you ALSO know if your ally will stop the attack in time, before you commit to a defense. In the case of Ghost Force, I expect Myst did not realize that Krush's ice would block the lightning in time - she was covering herself because she expected the lightning to be hit. If we used the "Restricted Dodge Against Firearms" (pg 17 of Tactical Shooting) it doesn't even seem to be legal to dodge firearms while using the normal aim maneuver, where to dodge the ranged attack of a single foe you're aware of requires "All-Out Defense, Attack, Change Posture, Defensive Attack, Feint, Move, or Move and Attack" meaning t would be illegal to dodge firearms while using the maneuvers of Aim / Committed Attack / Concentrate / Evaluate (AOA goes without saying) which makes me wonder if "I'm turtling up so the lightning hits my arms instead of my face" could count as some kind of parry... - - I think this may get into the territory of optional rules I have seen done for GURPS regarding pre-emptive defenses, where a defense can be declared when an attack is declared, but before the attack is rolled, so that you don't know whether it would hit or miss. This would also (since attack rolls are made before sacrificial defense rolls) mean you wouldn't know whether or not an ally's sacrificial defense would succeed either. This concept works for melee or ranged but it seems especially useful in ranged combat, and that's why I think only ranged combat has addressed it in the core books. The earliest I can remember is in T-Bone's 2004 "Gulliver" at http://www.gamesdiner.com/GULLIVER/B...laringDefenses where he posited the default is declaring defenses before the attack (ie you waste a parry, or in the case of aiming a bow, spoil your aim) but that you could do "last second" defenses (I'd probably rephrase that "last instant" since all defenses technically happen in the 'last second', that's an entire maneuver!) at a penalty. T-Bone's proposed penalties were basically some arbitrary doubling which applied equally to both defenses: "1 for a melee attack, -2 for a thrown weapon, -4 for a missile like an arrow, -8 for a bullet, or -16 for a hypervelocity" - - July 2013 we saw Cole do a similar approach Pyramid 3-57's Gunplay (On Target) pg 29 did this under "Intercepting the Projectile" except instead of being arbitrary he drew directly from the Speed/Range chart to get his penalties (halved for active defenses) to get penalties for blocking/parrying. The numbers were eerily similar showing T-Bone had pretty decent instincts - throwing axes/knives/hatchets were -2, javelins were -3, medieval arrow -4, modern arrow -5, pistol bullet -7, rifle bullet -8. The most major difference is Cole halved these penalties for dodges. Cole's method of avoiding the penalties via pre-emptive defense declaration only appears to be allowed for blocks - you take the speed penalty if you declare after the hit roll, but if you declare prior to the hit roll "a Block roll – unpenalized – should be permitted" This doesn't exactly help w/ the Myst dilemma since she's not using a shield, but clearly does "turtle up" into a fetal position to protect her face/vitals against the lightning using her limbs (thus spoiling her aim). I don't think this should be chocked up to a Mental Stun from a Fright Check because it seems conceivable someone immune to fear would still flinch from dangerous attacks to cover vulnerable areas (face+vitals) using their limbs. Maybe they'd have more control over whether or not they chose to do that, but they could still do that, and there'd be some benefit do doing it pre-emptively (soon as you saw the lightning being prepped) rather than waiting until you know if/where it will hit you (or if your ally will intercede) - - I feel like I'm forgetting another approach to this pre-emptive defenses thing that someone else did that could solve the situation... like to resolve why Myst spoiled her bow+arrow aim turtling up from Raijin's lightning, wasn't there something about using limbs as improvised shields but only as cover (take HP to limbs instead of face/vitals) rather than nullifying the attack (nothing takes damage) ? The way I figure, considering the small diameter of some bucklers, if you completely flexed your limbs (ie thigh+shin or forearm+upperarm held almost parallel) it could emulate the surface area of a buckler in terms of being able to "block" ranged attacks. Unlike a buckler it couldn't deflect an arrow damage-free (bucklers have hard DR for arrow tips to glance off of, flesh doesn't) but it should still be able to provide it's HP as cover DR so that the arrow needs to pierce the muscles of your limb to hit your face or thigh. This might be harder to pull off (ie it's easier for you to move your outstretched hand to get the buckler in the path than it is to turtle your entire arm in to cover your face) but should still be possible. I figure that's what Myst was trying to do since she lacked a shield to block the lightning (plus she probably didn't know which parts of her it would hit, which is why both the arm AND leg was used to cover face+vitals) but I don't know how you'd represent this in terms of applying GURPS penalties. I know you can lift people and use them via your Shield skill as an Improvised Shield, so if you can do that with some guy you lifted by the shirt (rested against your forearm) you could probably do it with just your bare forearm, except probably at a penalty since your foreamr is probably narrower in terms of SM than the guy you just lifted (unless were a Cave Troll lifting a Hobbit)