Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post

Kallatari · 06-08-2021, 05:32 PM

I personally advise against ever-increasing cost of skills because it throws off the "character creation balance" elsewhere.

No matter how you cost out the increasing skill cost, it will eventually reach a point where increasing the underlying attribute will be cheaper than raising the skill. At that point, your problem won't be the "DX 10, Broadsword DX+30" characters, it will be the "DX 30, Broadsword DX+10" characters.. or whatever the min/max threshold ends up being according to the used pricing method. That threshold becomes even lower if they have multiple skills based on the same attribute they want to increase.

The only way to solve that is to have the same ever increasing cost of attributes... which then shifts the problem to the derived characteristics (e.g., it's cheaper to raise Dodge, Basic Speed, and Move combined than it to increase either HT or DX). You could mitigate this problem by placing a cap on attributes or characteristics, but if you're willing to do that, why not just place a cap on skills in the first place?

Anyway, that simple change to the price of skills leads to requiring many additional changes, or you're just moving the problem elsewhere. It's a full repricing of many other traits.

Additionally, once you do that, you have the flaw that 3E had with ever-increasing attributes: how do you price a "bonus" to a trait? What is a +1 DX worth if the price of DX always increases? Do you get a "cheaper" rate if 1 of your levels of DX comes from a racial bonus? How do you create a fair "Affliction, Attribute Boost +1 Dodge")? I have in my game powers that amount to "Affliction, +2 Broadsword" which is worth 8 character points. With an ever-increasing skill value, how do you create such an ability? (Or, you create is as a bonus number of character points, but you need to look it up every time for the exact effect. And if there are cheaper ways of increasing attributes as bonuses rather than increasing the underlying attribute, the power gamers will find and use that.

None of the above is game-breaking, however. So if you think the cost of skills really is a problem in your games, change it. So long as you're aware of these issues, you can manage it as a GM. It just takes more managing and character creation oversight, and a bit more attention on what else it impacts.

Finally, solving "ridiculously masterful skill" can lead to a reserve problem: "good at too many skills". As someone who has GMed games with high-point PCs, if the characters can't get the better at something once they've reached the best possible level, they'll get really good at everything else. Instead of having the world's best fighter, the world's best thief, and the world's best sage in your party, you'll have a trio of "one of the best fighter/thief/sages". This is just as important as it involves PCs stepping into the role of other PCs. It's a "social" issues of an RPG rather than a rules issue, but it's still important to pay attention to. That said, this is only a problem when characters have a lot of points to play with, so easily managed by a low-point game... you know, less than 500 or so...

In my campaigns, with my group of players, I've found character growth in play is what really helps shape the PC to prevent any abuse of skills. Place a cap for starting characters only. You can't start with more than Broadsword DX+6, but can increase it to any level with earned points. My players make plans to get the high skill levels, but the way the story develops and plays out, they wind up taking a lot more variety than just what they originally planned. Yes, they do eventually achieve their original goals (the "combat monsters" of my campaigns tend to max out at skills in mid twenties), but definitely not as quickly as they had planned because they found so many other interesting things to learn and improve along the way. And my campaigns usually start at about 150 points and end around 1000 points, so plenty of room to grow for my PCs. It's definitely not foolproof, and a player who really wants something will get it... but for my group of players it seems to work.

06-08-2021, 05:32 PM	#62
Kallatari Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada	Re: Skill Advancement I personally advise against ever-increasing cost of skills because it throws off the "character creation balance" elsewhere. No matter how you cost out the increasing skill cost, it will eventually reach a point where increasing the underlying attribute will be cheaper than raising the skill. At that point, your problem won't be the "DX 10, Broadsword DX+30" characters, it will be the "DX 30, Broadsword DX+10" characters.. or whatever the min/max threshold ends up being according to the used pricing method. That threshold becomes even lower if they have multiple skills based on the same attribute they want to increase. The only way to solve that is to have the same ever increasing cost of attributes... which then shifts the problem to the derived characteristics (e.g., it's cheaper to raise Dodge, Basic Speed, and Move combined than it to increase either HT or DX). You could mitigate this problem by placing a cap on attributes or characteristics, but if you're willing to do that, why not just place a cap on skills in the first place? Anyway, that simple change to the price of skills leads to requiring many additional changes, or you're just moving the problem elsewhere. It's a full repricing of many other traits. Additionally, once you do that, you have the flaw that 3E had with ever-increasing attributes: how do you price a "bonus" to a trait? What is a +1 DX worth if the price of DX always increases? Do you get a "cheaper" rate if 1 of your levels of DX comes from a racial bonus? How do you create a fair "Affliction, Attribute Boost +1 Dodge")? I have in my game powers that amount to "Affliction, +2 Broadsword" which is worth 8 character points. With an ever-increasing skill value, how do you create such an ability? (Or, you create is as a bonus number of character points, but you need to look it up every time for the exact effect. And if there are cheaper ways of increasing attributes as bonuses rather than increasing the underlying attribute, the power gamers will find and use that. None of the above is game-breaking, however. So if you think the cost of skills really is a problem in your games, change it. So long as you're aware of these issues, you can manage it as a GM. It just takes more managing and character creation oversight, and a bit more attention on what else it impacts. Finally, solving "ridiculously masterful skill" can lead to a reserve problem: "good at too many skills". As someone who has GMed games with high-point PCs, if the characters can't get the better at something once they've reached the best possible level, they'll get really good at everything else. Instead of having the world's best fighter, the world's best thief, and the world's best sage in your party, you'll have a trio of "one of the best fighter/thief/sages". This is just as important as it involves PCs stepping into the role of other PCs. It's a "social" issues of an RPG rather than a rules issue, but it's still important to pay attention to. That said, this is only a problem when characters have a lot of points to play with, so easily managed by a low-point game... you know, less than 500 or so... In my campaigns, with my group of players, I've found character growth in play is what really helps shape the PC to prevent any abuse of skills. Place a cap for starting characters only. You can't start with more than Broadsword DX+6, but can increase it to any level with earned points. My players make plans to get the high skill levels, but the way the story develops and plays out, they wind up taking a lot more variety than just what they originally planned. Yes, they do eventually achieve their original goals (the "combat monsters" of my campaigns tend to max out at skills in mid twenties), but definitely not as quickly as they had planned because they found so many other interesting things to learn and improve along the way. And my campaigns usually start at about 150 points and end around 1000 points, so plenty of room to grow for my PCs. It's definitely not foolproof, and a player who really wants something will get it... but for my group of players it seems to work.