[EskrimadorNC]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I think all of those movies, though, have Cranking it Up on.

Maybe. Any reason why you feel that Cranking it Up provides a more cinematic feel than Quick and Dirty?

Double CP sounds awesome, but the die roll is pretty variable, are you are likely to get **** for CP with a low roll, even with that switch in place. Q&D means that you will always get some CP, even on relatively low ST characters. If my guy has Trained ST 11 (1d-1 CP) and we are using CiU and I roll a 1 for CP that is still 0 CP. If I roll a 2, then I net out at 2 CP. With Q&D, I'm always getting 5 CP. Less variation, but I never get punished for a bad CP roll.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The other thing that is worth considering here is the exploitation and training in combinations or, even better, Extra Attack. That allows you to (say) apply an arm lock AND apply pain each turn, which imparts stacking penalties from -2 for Moderate Pain to -6 for Severe...and of course if you manage to score Agony they're done.

This is interesting to me. I went back and re-read the "Inflicting more pain with locks" section in TG to make sure I was understanding it correctly. I was not aware that you could STACK pain penalties. My assumption was that if your MoS in the QC = Severe Pain on turn 1, then you rolled another QC on turn 2 and got Moderate pain, then your foe on turn 2 is only under the moderate pain penalties. I always thought you had to hit MoV 10+ in a single quick contest to inflict Agony, and that it only lasted until your next turn.

Granted, if you have to SPEND CP each turn to do this, you are going to eventually run out and lose the lock/grapple. That's not how it works IRL in my experience, but it makes sense from a game mechanics perspective.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My experience is that Extra Attack is 100% worth it for grapplers who can afford it (and cinema heroes can), because it turns a lot of the moves that usually have to be trained as Rapid Strikes (arm-lock/attack is a big one) or on sequential turns and turns them into one-move things.

Yeah, I came to the same exact conclusion. Especially if you want to lock/throw in one turn, which is my experience in how it tends to work IRL, especially with wrist locks, which we use almost exclusively to throw people.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My more hands-on training does suggest that applying an arm lock and pain in one move is the most common thing - the position for most joint locks (as opposed to "simple" holds that immobilize limbs without reaching the limits of movement) puts the joint in a position of near-zero leverage and usually very much non-zero discomfort. Moving the "apply pain as a free action" to the same turn as the Arm Lock attack rather than the following turn should fix up the issue you see with "and now I have to wait for my foe."

I would go so far as considering a throw from a lock is something you can also do in the same turn that you apply the lock. Timing wise, that makes it happen way faster than IRL, but game flow wise, it makes the most sense as the lock/throw happens in one smooth motion.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The requirement to spend CP to apply pain is something that I did away with in Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, and it's something I'd do away with in a notional TG 2nd Edition too. That mechanic "makes sense" from a game perspective but for things like strangles and locks, never feels right in play.

Agreed. Also, this made me go and pick up FDG from DriveThruRPG yesterday. I am really digging the rules in there. GREAT supplement.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My own experience is that a lot of the "formal" joint locks only work when your foe is surprised at your resistance. Being grabbed at a bar or a table was my own example, where someone got mad and grabbed my shirt, reaching directly to his left. It was a perfect setup for a C-Lock (and why I always insist grapples are mutual!) and so I just grabbed his hand as I stood up and turned, which moved him into "locked" position. Stepping away, he was then forced backwards, tipping his chair over and him with it. No harm to anyone other than that. But it was not something I feel I could have done had he tried that as a quick shot rather than "I will grab you and be intimidating, rah!"

Mine too, though I would add that standing joint locks are a lot easier to achieve on a non-surprised opponent if you lead in with distracting strikes first. If a guy grabs you by the wrist and is focusing on your wrist, getting him into a joint lock is really hard. But if you slam the instep of your foot against his shin FIRST, then the lock becomes pretty easy.

I suppose that sorta counts as "surprise" too. My point is that locking someone who is focusing on the joint your are trying to lock is probably going to prevent you from doing so. Getting him to think about something else first significantly increases your chance of success.

Incidentally, this applies to weapon disarms as well, and all of our disarms are preceded by strikes, feeds, or some other distraction to keep the guy from focusing on the weapon you are trying to take away from him.

{quote=DouglasCole]
In actual sports grappling, I see a lot more "big moves" in terms of using the entire body rather than the sort of "I have you at arm's length with a finger lock" precision manipulation.

Regardless: if you want cinematic fights you do have to employ cinematic switches, let your guys buy Extra Attack so they can do a lot of "combo" moves without a rapid strike, or really leverage that side and rear arc Change Position maneuver...which you can combine with any other Maneuver that allows a step. As Arm Lock is an attack, you can Change Position-Arm Lock in one move. That should take the wind out of their sails!

I'll admit most of the games I have run use the shorter "Fantastic Dungeon Grappling" rules, which take a lot of the fiddle out of the sequences, and make some improvements in speed of play. Exxar has a great post extrapolating almost all (all?) of the techniques listed in MA:TG to the FDG ruleset.[/QUOTE]

I like what I've read so far in FDG, and once I've had some more time to digest it and make sure it covers all of the bases from TG that are important to me, I'll likely it up making it my defacto ruleset for Grappling in GURPS.

Thanks again for your feedback. You've filled some gaps, applied some perspective, and given me lots of food for thought. I really appreciate it.