Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Hi guys, I've always used the "common" Magic presented in Gurps Magic, but after reading about Ritual Path Magic, I can say that I was caught in the trend...
After reading it some times, I've decided to try to design some spells, and, apparently, I'm doing something wrong... Let's see:

Lightning Bolt (the caster launches a burning streak of electricity for 3d damage) - The "inner" workings are the following: Create Energy (6 points), 3d damage (0 points as it is a directed attack), Greater Effect (x3) for a total of 18 points, right? But what are the traits of the attack? Range, accuracy, rof... What if I want to add "overhead", that is rated as a 30% enhancement, how it adds to the energy cost?

Second, an invisibility spell (The subject is turned invisible for the duration, and cannot carry anything) - Transform Body (8 points), adds advantage (Invisibility (affects machines, only substantial) for 56 points) and, lets say, duration of 10 minutes for 1 energy point. It is a Greater Effect, so the total cost is (8+56+1) x 3, or... 195 energy points, right? How can someone makes it a lesser effect? Can be considered a lesser effect if it is cast where no one can see the target before the effect?

Third: I'm having a hard time determining what is a lesser effect and what is a greater effect with some kinds of casting, mainly body-related. Is bestowing DR 1 to a character a greater effect? And what about DR 4? Augmentating the ST of another by 10 points, with no visible effects, is a greater effect? It is all very confusing...

Sorry if it already was asked before.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Hi! It is quite awesome isn't it? :D

I suggest checking this thread for some mini FAQ by PK.

You use the same traits for a Innate Attack for stats that is: Range 10/100, Acc 3, RoF 1, Shots N/A, Rcl 1. Adding overhead would cost +8 additional energy (See the thread I posted above).


I wouldn't go about it that way (you can, it IS possible for multiple paths to the same effect as is most RPM spells). I would use Greater Destroy Energy (5) + Weight, 300 lbs (3) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) 27 energy (9x3). I would NEVER consider invisibility a lesser effect.

This is hard, if your the GM use your judgement, for statistics and advantages use the "realistic" guidelines GURPS gives: so up to Basic Speed +2.00 would be a lesser effect, anything higher would be a greater one. Granting a human DR is going to almost always be a greater effect. The upcoming ritual path magic book will go into a LOT more depth on the subject.


Only silly question is the one unasked. :-)

Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

If the effect is thrown then it uses the standard rules for an innate attack.

Acc 3, Range 10/100, RoF1.

It cannot be changed. In order to grant a different sort attack grant it as an innate attack through altered traits.

Invisibility is never going to be a lesser effect by the default rules (I have a series of varient RPM 'styles' for my own fantasy campaign, some of which play with what is a lesser effect- you may have similar).

There are also generally no hard and fast rules for what is a lesser effect; but some general rules of thumb:

Up to +3 bonus can be a lesser effect (+3 to a stat, +3 to a skill, etc).

Up to -5 penalty can be a lesser effect (its easier to 'believe' someone is an incompotent idiot then believe that someone else is superhuman).

Granting +3 to the stealth skill of the person you wan to make 'invisible', -5 to the perception of those who you want to make them invisible to, and throw in some extra magical darkness for an extra -5 and you have 'effective invisibility' (net +13 to stealth quick contests), through three lesser effects.

Remember the threshold for what is a lesser effect is : Not 'impossible' to an un-involved mundane outside observer (which can be HIGHLY subjective, and is ultimately the GMs decision).

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

For Invisibility, you can also consider the "Altered Traits" modifier for granting the Advantage.

Greater/Lesser is basically GM's call. It's going to be fuzzy. There's an upcoming book devoted to RPM that will probably have a lot more guidelines.

Invisibility fails this test for me.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Unless the world setting is plagued by inviso-lightning. Or it requires a smoke bomb charm to cast.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Well, I saw this thread and thought I'd come answer, but everyone's nailed it as well as I could have. The only thing I want to make sure is clear is that the rules for adding enhancements . . .
. . . definitely can be used to improve the default stats of Acc 3, Range 10/100, etc. Don't forget about the minimum +1 energy! I had people submitting rituals for the book where the damage had (e.g.) Surge, +20% and No Wounding, -50%, but with +0 energy on top of the damage instead of that minimum +1.

And I can promise that the biggest change in the upcoming GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic book is the degree to which specific spell effects are explored and explained, including the difference between Lesser and Greater effects. Every single combination of Path + effect is given its own detailed entry, with examples, limits, and (where applicable) hard numbers.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I think the biggest issue I'm having with RPM is judging when it's appropriate to require Altered Traits to grant an advantage. It seems like most advantages could be expressed in terms of one of the listed Spell Effects, leading me to wonder what Altered Traits is for (advantage-wise; it's clear it's useful for ability scores & removing disads).

I initially thought in terms of Altered Traits for nearly any effect (probably because of "magic as powers"), but it's clear that isn't the author's intent. So, reversing that way of thinking, when should Altered Traits be required?

Any rules of thumb to share?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I run a group of six players where half of them have RPM, my GM'ing style is massive prep and then LOTS of improv. I can tell you without a doubt that RPM is the best system I've ever used. Now, off my soapbox and to your question!

The best yardstick I use simple and thus: if the effect is temporary or lasting for a short time it's probably a effect and not a altered trait. For instance you could build a spell to detect disease as either Lesser Sense Body (2) (2 energy) or Greater Strengthen Body (3) + Altered Traits, Detect (Disease) (10) + Duration, 1 hour (3) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs (3) (57 energy). Both have their uses, the first would let you tell you the reason a subject is suffering from a specific symptom while the second could be used on multiple subjects and tell you all the diseases they had regardless of if they were showing symptoms of it or not.


Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Given that duration is a factor that the caster pays for regardless of whether the effect is considered intrinsic to the Spell Effect or whether it's an Altered Trait, why would this affect the decision about whether an Altered Trait is required?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

My preference is that if the effect can be built without using Altered Traits, that we don't use the Altered Traits modifier. Building out a ritual with Altered Traits tends to slow the game down more so than building out a ritual during play normally does. Thereby ...

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Oh, I get what you're saying about slowing the game down!

Can you give some examples where Altered Traits is required, in your opinion?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Let me try again, if your spell would cover the effect without Altered Traits then built it as such. For example, a spell to "awaken" a computer (this was in the open call for ritual submissions for the RPM book so I feel confidant about posting this here) is built thusly:

Computerized Ally
Spell Effects: Greater Control Energy + Greater Create Mind.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 2 (¥5).

This is typically cast as a charm – usually an inexpensive flash drive, to avoid suspicion. When the drive is inserted into the USB port of a computer, the machine immediately “awakens.” For the next hour, it is treated as an intelligent being with IQ equal to twice its Complexity (p. B472), minimum 8.
It will happily and completely obey the person who triggered the spell. This includes finding (and decrypting) its files, running programs, and volunteering any information of which it would have a record. For example, it would know which users had logged in recently, but it could not say who was standing next to that user. (Though if a webcam was functional at the time, it may have video.) The GM should play the computer as an eager, intelligent person, not as a literal-minded automaton!

Typical Casting: Greater Control Energy (5) + Greater Create Mind (6) + Lesser Control Magic (5) + Duration, 1 hour (3). 95 energy (19 ¥ 5).


So you wouldn't add Altered Traits, IQ Bonus (etc.) - the spell would take care of all that.

Hope that helps some.

Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I accept that's the author's intent. But if this spell can do all of that (no need for IQ or the various ads that make a computer what it is, in GURPS terms, nor any need to remove any of the disads that prevent every computer from being like this anyway), then when would Altered Traits ever be needed to add an advantage or remove a disadvantage?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I'm not sure how to answer this, much of RPM is under the purview of the GM. If the GM says a spell can do such and such then it can. If the GM says it needs Altered Traits...then it does.

I'm gonna hit the summon PK button and see if he can 'splain it better.

Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I also want to point out that RPM is a pretty subjective system, there are literally dozens of ways to build a particular effect. I've always gone by "feel" to determine what a given effect was needed but that's just me.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I appreciate your efforts to enlighten me! I'm afraid I'm just "not getting it" on some fundamental level.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Why don't you go through the process of designing a spell and then posting it and maybe I can get a whiff of how you create spells. For instance, last game session my girlfriend wanted to create a spell that would allow her to instantly get to the other side of the tactical board, so we came up with this:

Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Area of Effect, 1 yard (2) + Range, 50 yards, extra-dimensional* (18) + Speed, 50 yards (8) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 111 energy (37x3 energy).


This basically let her open up a portal to the another spot 50 yards away. I could also have built it like this:

Greater Strengthen Body (3) + Altered Traits, Modified Warp** (180) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 558 energy (186x3 energy).


* In the setting the only way gates can be created is by going through the Dreamlands.
** Warp (Gyroscopic, +10%; Range Limit, 100 yards, -10%; Reduced Range 1/2, -10%; Reliable 10, +50%; Tunnel, +40%) [180].

The first example is just easier to GM on the fly and "feels" better.

Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

{In My Games}

(a) "This ritual buffs the target's ST by 2."
(b) "This ritual makes my friends stronger."

(a) requires the Altered Traits modifier. (b) does not.

Yes, this means (a) is more expensive than (b) even though both are Lesser Strengthen Body rituals; however, (a) is a known value while (b)'s value is determined by the referee at the time of casting.

Contrast with:
(c) "This ritual lets my friends breathe underwater."

(c) can be built in a number of ways. If built as a Greater Transform Body (represented by either giving them gills or by simply letting them inhale water as if it was breathable air), I would require the Altered Traits modifier. The ability to breathe water is made innate to the ritual's targets. If built as a Greater Transform Matter (represented as transmuting inhaled water into breathable air), on the other hand, I would not require Altered Traits. The result is the same in both cases, but the way of getting there is different and the consequences of how you get there is also important.

(The first (c) doesn't result in them exhaling normally, for example. Water in, water out. The second (c) does. Water in, air out.)

Does that help?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

So, question...

If I want a spell that causes lightning to shoot out of my fingers to cause 3d damage, it's a Greater Create Energy for 6x3 = 18 minimum energy; but if I want to cause my subject's spleen to explode for 3d damage, it's a Lesser Destroy Body - lesser because it's subtle and believable?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Yes.

Yes. the upcoming RPM book will go into this in detail. I usually don't let anything go beyond 4d or so for that. You (or your GM's) mileage may very.

Ghostdancer

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Dealing damage with a lightning bolt is an "external" damage source, meaning it delivers triple the base damage (3d for +0 energy). An "internal" attack like a rupturing spleen or appendix should be handled as a Malediction, and thus deals just base damage (1d for +0 energy). I would never allow a blatant, external attack as a Lesser Effect, but I might allow it for an internal one, so long as the degree of damage isn't too extreme.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Massive aneurysms can drop people instantly and are in the same league as good old elf strokes for mystical purposes.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

How big are energy points in this system? Are they comparable to Energy Accumulating Path/Book Magic energy points or GURPS Magic magic energy points? I don't have Monster Hunters.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I wouldn't call that damage. I'd make that as a Heart Attack affliction instead. Vascular blockages do pretty much the same thing just in different ways.

Also, wasn't elf strokes caused by elf-shot?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

It basically uses Energy Accumulation.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

As a general rule, use Altered Traits when the subject is going to be granted an advantage which is completely under his control -- he can turn it on and off for the duration, decide how it's used, etc. -- or which acts as a "buff," augmenting his natural abilities without changing him in any fundamental way.

So a spell that let you mentally communicate with the subject (two-way) would just need the spell effect (plus Duration and Range). But a spell that granted the subject the ability to mentally communicate with anyone at will would also need Altered Traits, Mind Reading and Telesend. Because it's gone from "the spell makes this happen" to "the spell gives you the ability to make this happen."

Another example: You can use Greater Control Body to pick someone up telekinetically and move him around. Or you could add Altered Traits, Flight, to give him the ability to lift himself and fly for the duration. (If you are the subject, these are similar results, but the former means you have to concentrate to "move yourself," while the latter just lets you fly at will.)

On a related note: One of the things the RPM book will make clear is that there's never a need to use Altered Traits, Alternate Form when you use a Transform effect to change someone's body, because that's what the Transform Body effect does. That said, if the GM feels that the new form is overpowered, he can insist that the spell pay for the difference in template cost.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Thanks for the answer - that was quite helpful.

How does this work with spells that duplicate abilities that are not really under anyone's control once the spell is cast (regardless of the actual duration)?

Take that old favorite, Invisibility. If we're duplicating the unaltered advantage (meaning unswitchable), then no one really controls it once the casting is complete. Does this make it a buff, meaning that you need Altered Traits?

And if a caster uses Altered Traits to give an advantage to someone, does that mean the caster cannot end the spell prematurely (in contradiction with the line in MH1:37), because the advantage is under the target's control?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I'd say yes. It's also important to ask, "Does it make sense that the spell effect alone would be enough to accomplish this?" In my opinion, there isn't any spell effect that seems to encompass that result without a little extra "oomph" from Altered Traits.

No. The subject has complete control over the advantage for as long as the spell lasts. The duration of the spell is 100% up to the caster.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

To give a living subject of a spell +1 to DX, can I use:

Strengthen Body 3
Bestow Bonus to broad range of rolls (+1 DX) +5
Weight 300 lbs. +3
Duration 10 minutes +3
1 Greater Effect (x3)

(3+5+3+3)*3=42 Energy

or do I have to use

Strengthen Body 3
Altered Traits (+1 DX) +20
Weight 300 lbs. +3
Duration 10 minutes +3
1 Greater Effect (x3)

(3+20+3+3)*3=87 Energy

Or if both are viable, what is the difference?

Thanks

Onkl

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I don't think that's legit...perhaps if it were something like +1 to DX-based combat skills or something like that.

Yeah. This is what I'd use.

Ghostdancer

Edit: that should be a lesser effect not a Greater one.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

What do people use as the cutoff between lesser and greater effects for stat changes and bestows a bonus/penalty?

Personally, I've been eyeballing +3 or better to a stat and +4 or better for BaB/P as greater effects.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

How would you model an attack that lets you establish telekinetic control over someone to quickly hurl them in one direction? For instance, would this work:

TK Hurl
Greater Control Body[5]();
Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3],
Speed: 50 yds/second [8],
Range: Normal: 10 yds [4].
Cost: 60 (20x3)
(made using Ritual Designer at http://gurps-monsterhunters.appspot.com/)

Does that only set their top speed though, and if so what is the acceleration? Considering the potential slam damage for a velocity like this, does this seem munchkiny compared to the normal damage method?

Edit: Whoops, missed that bit by PK up a few posts. I'm thinking this would be legal - after all, you could always lift someone up using the method described and then just cancel the effect to let them drop or hurl them off a ledge - if you're in control, whats to stop you from forcing them up to maximum speed and crashing them into an obstacle or flinging them away?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

I use about ±3 for stats. As for the cutoff between lesser/greater effects for bestows a bonus/penalty of up to ±5. It's worked for me. Your GM's mileage may vary.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Seems legit to me, I wouldn't worry about the slam damage - you can after all use regular TK for slam damage (a favorite trick of the teke in my current campaign).

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

What about +0.25 to Basic Speed?

How would you model that?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Altered Traits, Basic Speed +0.25, (5)

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

You said it yourself. You didn't say you were trying to give the subject "+1 to a broad set of DX-based rolls." You're trying to give the subject "+1 to DX." So you should use Altered Traits, DX+1. Always look at what you're trying to do with the spell, then choose the option which describes it -- 99% of the time, that'll be the most appropriate choice.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

But in a post above, you agreed with Onkl that you would make a +1DX a greater effect. Did you mean to?

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Here's my take on it.

Using RPM to generate favorable circumstances that give a bonus (or more reduce a penalty) is a lesser effect. Such as increasing the light level or ensuing a gun is well maintained, either could give a bonus to gun skill as a lesser effect.

Using RPM to just increase something is a greater effect regardless of how minor or major the result is. If you are improving dexterity by augmenting every muscle in the body it is a greater effect.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

No, I was agreeing with how the DX bonus should be handled. I edited my post above to reflect that. I'd say +1 to +3 DX could be written off as a Lesser effect.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

The RPM book goes into more depth here, but if this is how the GM wants RPM to work in his campaign then he's right. Period. :-)

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Could you please tell me wheter you think this would be a viable charm under the circumstances discussed above?

Clumsiness Charm
-5 to Active Defenses, -3 to Basic Speed for a target up to 50 yards away, weighing up to 1000 lbs.
Lesser Control Magic[5](Charm),
Lesser Control Body[5](-5 to Active Defense Rolls),
Lesser Control Body[5](-3 to Basic Speed);
Subject Weight: 1,000 lbs. [4],
Duration: 12 hours [6],
Range: Normal: 50 yds [8],
Bonus Or Penalty: Broad: -5 [80] (-5 to Active Defense Rolls),
Altered Traits: -60 [12] (-3 to Basic Speed).
Cost: 125

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

It looks decent, though I think -5 Defense is rather heavy as a Lesser Effect. Most folks are citing ±3 as the cutoff, and since Defenses are based on 1/2 skill, I'd treat that limit as ±2 for them. I would allow -3 to Combat Skills though, which would drop Parry and Block accordingly. Reduced Dodge would be covered by the reduced Basic Speed.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Inflicting someone with 4 ranks of the Noncombatant Antitalent would be a sweet thing

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Yeah that looks accurate, but I'd reduce the penalty to Basic Speed down to -2 and add Klutz instead. Klutz would be just mean with the above penalty considering a -5 to Dodge *shiver*. Personally I'd put the penalty down to -3 (ish).

Ghostdancer


Edit: the -5 is a bit heavy, but if your the GM it doesn't matter. Keep in mind RPM is pretty GM subjective.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

It just feels like it's pushing it cause wouldn't he actually have -8 to dodge, cause of the -3 to basic speed? But yes, you are right, Klutz it is! Thanks!!

Cheers

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

There are so many ways you can pull off a 'clumsiness charm'; the easiest IMHO would be something like this:

Battle Hex
Spell Effects: Lesser Weaken Body.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 0 (x1).

This spell temporarily afflicts the target with the Combat Paralysis and Klutz disadvantages. This lasts for 1 hour.

Typical Casting: Lesser Weaken Body (5) + Altered Traits, Combat Paralysis and Klutz (6) + Duration, 1 hour (3) + Range, 50 yards (8) + Subject Weight, 1000 lbs (4). 26 energy (26x1).

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Yeah it would. Ugh.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

The improved version, including Klutz. Thanks for the above Charm, looks tasty!

===The Charm of Fail===
-5 to active defense rolls, -2 to basic speed, DisAd Total Klutz: Any failed DX based roll is a critical fail. Works on any subject up to 300 lbs for 10 minutes up to 20 yards. Subjects resist at -4 to HT.
Lesser Control Magic[5](Charm),
Lesser Control Body[5](-5 to Active Defense Rolls),
Lesser Control Body[5](-2 to Basic Speed),
Lesser Control Body[5](Total Klutz);
Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3],
Duration: 10 minutes [1],
Range: Normal: 20 yds [6],
Bonus Or Penalty: Broad: -5 [80] (-5 to Active Defense Rolls),
Altered Traits: -40 [8] (-2 to Basic Speed),
Extra Energy: 4 [4] (-4 to Resist with HT roll),
Altered Traits: -15 [3] (Total Klutz).
Cost: 125

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

That's not how Extra Energy works, adding extra energy makes a spell harder to dispel by another caster. I've been using Bestows a Penalty to make a spell harder to resist. So if you wanted -4 to resist it would cost an additional 8 energy.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

As it stands this spell only works on living beings, consider basing it on the Path of Chance and then you can affect all sorts of things...

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

BTW, all of those Control Body effects should be Destroy Body effects...

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Either one could be justified, though I agree that Destroy (ie, Weaken) Body is the more obvious route. Cost is the same either way.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

That's sort of the beauty of RPM - I personally put most 'destructive' effects as Destroy Whatever.

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Oh, thank you very much! I honestly thought I did it right... thanks for the correction!

Re: Newbie having a hard time with RPM
 

Just glad I could help. Do note that as far as I am aware that's not strictly RAW, but it's come up in my game often enough that I had to make a decision on it for my campaigns. With a high enough skill you don't really need it, since the roll to affect someone with any given spell is your skill vs. the higher of their HT or Will + Magic Resistance.

Ghostdancer