Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

Isn't that what Pickaxe Penchant and the like are supposed to be?

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

Why DX? The martial artist already has great DX -- it's his other scores that need the help. The whole idea behind Chi Talent is that you can buy Chi Talent 4 [60] instead of having to buy IQ +4 [80] and HT +4 [40] for twice the cost, and then it also boosts the DX-based chi skills and the chi powers as well.

It's actually the best deal in DF as far as Talents, IMO.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

That fix isn't all together that different from how Magery works already, in fact if anything its adding more egg to the mix for free. Magery in DF is already limited to 6 levels, and its not unheard of for other worked examples to reduce it to 4 levels or less. That is one of the great things about GURPS, the ability to place caps on traits to ensure they remain within the bounds of the setting.

I quite like this idea, I'm not sure I'd find much need for it myself - but I'd consider it for specialised schools which either taught professions with a very narrow focus on one style - or as specialised training for a mastery of the arts.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

Why should the wizard get to add 6 to his skill roll to the Lockmaster spell from Magery while the thief has nothing? This makes the thief pretty pathetic in comparison. The only time he is useful is when the DM hoses the wizard with a no mana zone or a meteroric lock.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

Things are not that simple. As PK said, Chi Talent is the best deal in DF and is worthy of each CP. Is it costly? Costly as hell. But to me, the whole point of playing a Martial Artist is to make extensive use of all Chi Skills, and they are DX, IQ, HT, Will and Per-based. There's not a single non-usefull chi-skill.

Yet, anyone can have Chi Talent 4, as long as they have the Martial Artist lenses. But only Martial Artists can reach Chi Talent 6. Ok, that's 90 points, but that means +6 on all Chi Skills and Chi imbuements, since they're also Martial Artist power-ups.

And Chi Talent also works for Chi powered advantages... But honestly I don't know which chi-power advantage receive your Chi Talent bonus.

Would that stack with racial talent, Forest Guard? That would make Ranger elves uber-archers.

EDIT: By the way, I've said in this forum that Martial Artists really should have an official Talent in their new Power-ups (in DF 11) that includes Karate, Judo, Acrobatics and other two skills (maybe Jumping and another skill). And Kromm agreed.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

I was saying that you could reduce the maximum level of Magery if you wanted without giving it anything else extra - plenty of other things are limited, like basic attributes are capped at 20 (+/- racial modifications and +5 in case of profession based exception).

Of cause, I banned the Lockmaster spell in my DF game for precisely that reason, it overshadows the thieves main skill set too heavily. I replaced it with a more personal utility spell called Passlock, which allows the caster (and only the caster) to appear on the other side of a locked door (well technically any door locked or not which has a key hole you can see through). This leaves the wizard in a bit of bother should they jump through to a room full of traps/hostiles, but also allows them to gain access to rooms which a thief cant unlock or isn't around to unlock.

It also prevents them from unlocking chests - which is something I also had a qualm with, as stealing loot that has been locked away is the thieves job. If you don't have one or they can't unlock it, then you smash it open and risk damaging the contents, you do not get a free pass with magic.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

I feel that with each class having its own talent list the game becomes truer to the original concept of D&D. The class becomes more important and this allows the attributes to be able to be reduced. This way a Knight can have high skill in weapon and other combat skills but otherwise does not have exceptionally high DX. Thus the Knight would not be very good at other DX skills outside of his class but would be very good at his class skills. Sometimes from a point maximization standpoint it is better jusr to put a buncho of points in an attributetattribute than to put into individual skills. Talents seem to compensate for this to some degree.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

I just have Low and No Mana zones, and the occasional Meteoric Iron lock.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

Regarding the Martial Artist's Chi Talent, I don't think it's as good a deal as it's being put forward here.

First off, it doesn't do very much as their power talent. It adds to Danger Sense, if you take that, but that's not worth very much. Other than that, it doesn't do very much at all in that regard.


Second, its bonus to skills. For one thing, the starting Martial Artist only gets seven chi skills to start with, and each one only has two points spent on it. You could put two more points into each of those and get the same thing for about the same cost (fourteen versus fifteen points).

Also, the skills themselves aren't each equally useful. Look at these two sample selections:


Selection #1
Autohypnosis
Esoteric Medicine
Blind Fighting
Mind Block
Pressure Points
Immovable Stance
Push

Selection #2
Throwing Art
Mental Strength
Light Walk
Power Blow
Flying Leap
Kiai
Breath Control


The usefulness of those two selections is not the same. If you want to focus on the skills in Selection #1, then you should probably pay a different amount for skill increases than if you want to focus on the skills from Selection #2.


It's also the case that the chi skills are of varying usefulness at different skill levels. Mind Block at 13 isn't very useful. Mind Block itself isn't very useful when compared to Mental Strength or Will.

Each level of a skill isn't worth the same amount. You need to have Power Blow at a high level if you want to use it. Body Control wants a higher level than your HT score. The ones that are more useful---Throwing Art and Light Walk--are both DX-based, which the Martial Artist already has at a high level, and are both useful from the start. You can get one of the best ranged weapon skills in the game.

And you can add other skills after character creation, to purchase all of them, but the person making a Martial Artist will take the seven skills they find most useful to start, and so each additional skill is worth less to them.

I'm just not sure how Chi Talent is supposed to be worth more than a level of Will + a level of HT, which covers most of those skills that aren't already at high levels from the Martial Artist's DX. Or you could do a level of Per + a level of Will + a 5-point Talent (which could include those other skills).

This is the same problem the Barbarian faces. If Outdoorsman didn't have Fishing, it would be a 5-point/level Talent. And you could use those other five points to raise Per, which... raises Fishing. You're paying five extra points a level to raise Fishing. If it wasn't even in the Talent, it would only cost 4/level to raise.


There are seventeen skills in Chi Talent. You're paying five more points for the five worst skills on the list, whichever you consider those to be.

I don't see any reason not to allow them to have a 10/level Talent where they pick twelve that they want, with the option of upgrading to the full 15/level version.

Or even a six skill version for 5/level. They only start with seven chi skills! Right off the bat, they're paying a ton of points for increases in skills that they don't even have. They're paying a ton of points for potential increases later on to skills that, in character creation, they thought were worse than their top seven!

If I make a Martial Artist, how many more of those Chi skills am I actually going to want? If I don't take Autohypnosis and Esoteric Medicine and I don't want to sink points into Power Blow, then that's three skills right there that I might never take, yet that I'm still paying points for as part of Chi Talent. Add a few more in there that I never want, and we're already down to a 10/level Talent. Parry Missile Weapons is way overpriced, my concept doesn't call for Kiai, I didn't take Power Blow so I can't get Flying Leap, and now I'm only using eleven of the potential seventeen Chi skills.


So, while it is significantly less costly to purchase Chi Mastery than to get an equivalent increase in skill levels to those skills from some other means, it's not as effective as it could be if you only want six or fewer or twelve or fewer of those skills. Compare it to Ninja Talent, or the Strong Chi talent from Power-Ups 3. The Martial Artist doesn't have an option for raising a small number of skills like that. It's all or nothing, but I don't think anyone values all seventeen of those Chi skills equally.

Re: [DF] Talents for the Standard Templates
 

There are other problem spells than Lockmaster. What about a Scout trying to follow a trail? The wizard can do that with a spell with higher skill. What about fast talk or social skills? Magic spells have an edge because Magery adds onto the spell skill level. But if the mundane PCs can a talent add onto their skills too then it becomes more even and then the mundane PC has an edge in no or low mana zones.