Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Hello guys,

I am a first time poster here at Steve Jackson Games.

I would like to request your assistance with creating a character for a campaign DMed by a friend of mine - If i am posting in teh wrong forum just let me know and I will move along :D

The campaign is Fantasy themed, however it is a sort of Super Fantasy where we start out with 250 points. I was kinda keen on creating an "old school" caster from the old days of yore and GURPS Magic that would accumulate the classical wizard function with the cleric/healer/buffer role, but as I am told by my more GURPS experienced playing companions, as the character points start to grow the classical magic system just does not cut it, creating extremely unbalanced situations so....

If i understand correctly the idea is to make each spell a separate power, but i am struggling with that for a couple of reasons:

- I do not COMPLETELY master the rules inside out, and the sources seem to be so many I do not know where to start building the spells or chosing the advantages;
- The effects I desire are so varied, ranging for example from a bolt, that can be split to hit multiple opponents or not, whose damage type can be modified [fire, cold, etc] and even if split could have one cold, one energy etc. to the other end of the spectrum where you simply pile conditions (slow, poison, etc.)
- I am reading through the forums and through the books, but if you guys could assist me with some pointers, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance for any possible feedback.

Cheers

Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Have you looked at Dungeon Fantasy?

You know you want to. C'mon, you don't need to eat more until payday... :)

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

First, talk to your GM. GURPS has a big toolkit of magic systems and options for them. They are not all balanced against each other, and the idea that you can insist on using one because "it's in the book" will not wash with a GM who doesn't like it. See what he is happy for you to use.

Second, the spell-based magic system is the subject of disagreements. Some people strongly advocate "magic built from powers", but it's a load of work, and regular attempts to crowdsource it don't appear to have succeeded. There's a fairly big list of spells built that way here.

It also seems that you can give the spell-based system more oomph by simply spending more on IQ and Margery. IQ 15 plus Magery 7 gives you a skill of 20 in most spells for one point each, making them quicker to cast and use less energy. You'll also want an energy reserve that recharges very fast so that you can keep casting: use Regeneration for this.

The book of advanced magic systems is GURPS: Thaumatology. There are a lot of systems and options in there; syntactic magic is generally the most powerful, but definitely get GM approval before starting to build a character that uses it.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Hello Asta,

No, I have heard about those books but never delved into them - I will do so, and I have read that there are many options in there for magic, but aren't the magic related questions treated there somewhat based on the classical GURPS Magic (which I would say my GM is... disallowing, for game balance reasons)

Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

First of all, thanks for the tips.

As far as checking with the DM, I have done it and the (final?) word is that we will go through the "each spell as a power" method - and that is what got me lost :D

I will go through the list that you linked - it will probably give me a chance to at least create a basic character and tweak it as I go. In that aspect, my GM is really cool - we start as an "evolved" sketch" of our character and then we finish it out as the campaign proceeds.

Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

If you prefer to take the Cleric route, I really recommend GURPS Powers: Divine Favor. It does a lot of hard lifting for you.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Actually, and since this is GURPS and I am the only caster in the group, I was planning in accumulating the 2 roles - both the mage and the cleric ;)

I won't get to be as strong in any of those individual roles but I am hoping I can mix it up in such a way to be fun to play and useful.


Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I'd go with the following ability from Pg 63 of GURPS Powers.

Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration

With some of all of the following Limitations to bring the cost down:

-Pact: Code of Honor
-Pact: Disciplines of Faith
-Pact: Fanaticism
-Pact: Honesty
-Pact: Sense of Duty
-Pact: Vow (Like: Never Use Edged Weapons)

By strictly following the rules of your Religion (ie. actually playing a Priest) you can probably get 100 points in modular abilities for less then 100 points. You'd want to break these up into multiple slots.

And keep in mind that they abilities you buy can have limitations too (even the same ones!)

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Great suggestion. I guess I am being somewhat of a victim of being a little ignorant of the overall GURPS Powers rules.

One of my longest running games ever was as a player in a mixed Occult/Cyberpunk/Supers themed campaign but i did not contact much with the actual super powers theme myself since I played a retired army sergeant with bionic implants and psionic powers only, back in the days of the 3rd edition.

I have taken a look at the modular abilities and Pact Limitations you suggested and I think they will fit nicely into the character. Now on to think out the actual type of dogmas followed. I am thinking him out as a mixed "scholar/proactive adventurer" type but i have played so many righteous characters before that this time I want to stray from that mainstream... And still be a good support character.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Also, keeping in mind I have (only) 250 points, I guess the advantage selection will be more a question of flavor than actually ground breaking options...

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I created a thread a while back about using 250 pts to design a versatile, spell-slinging wizard using only Powers instead of spells. It may not be your cup of tea but it might give you a grounding on possibilities. Here's the write-up:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...26&postcount=8

You could probably take the above design, swap out Extraordinary Luck [30] for Healing (Faith Healing +20%, Capped at 8 FP -20%) [30], drop Wizard!-14 [24] to Wizard!-13 [12] and add Priest!-13 [12], and be 95% of the way to having a complete character. Or at least something that you can get reviewed by your GM and see what he does and doesn't like.

Hope that helps!

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

mlangsdorf, THAT is a very useful link - thanks a lot.

I have found useful not only your explanations as to how you built your character but also the whole thread that i started taking a look at.

I feel inclined in using your char as a template to build something more suited to my taste and take it from there - after all the GM is pressuring me to have it done so we can start movin'

Again, thank you for the input and if I have any doubts regarding your build I hope I can revert back to you for clarifications?

Cheers.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

What do you mean by Cleric and Mage? Do you come from D&D, where the Cleric is for healing and support and the mage is a mobile artillery piece?

I second Divine Power as an excellent resource. It includes offensive powers, so you won't be a pure healbot.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Well, I wouldn't say i "come from D&D" but yes, I have played D&D for many years and still do - lets put it like this: I intend to have the abilities usually identified with mages, like offensive spells, decryption magic, identifying objects, and also the ones with a support role like healing, buffing, removing debuffs, etc [apologies for the WoW terminology in here].

I definitely need to take a look at Divine Power.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Here is 150 point Cleric i build a while back it easy to spend the additional 100 points make the modular points bigger. at the cost of 5 points for ever 1 modular. Swapping some of Pacts to reflect the God of your cleric.

ST 11 [10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 13 [60]; HT 12 [20].
Damage 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 13 [0]; Per 13 [0]; FP 12 [0].
Basic Speed 5.50 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0]; Dodge 8; Parry 9; Block 9.

Advantages: Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration (15 points) (Pact -50%, Physical +100%, Requires Reaction Roll -5%, Trigger: Hold Holy sysbol -20%)[83]; Signature Gear (Holy Symbol) [1] True Faith (Turning +65%) [25]

Disadvantages: Chummy [-5]; Fanaticism (Put the Undead to Rest)* [-15]; Guilt Complex [-5]; Lecherousness(12) [-15]; Pasifism (Cannot Harm Innocents)* [-10]; Sense of Duty (Innocents)* [-10]; Vow (Never refuse a request for aid)* [-15];

Quirks: Attentive [-1]; Broad-Minded [-1]; Humble [-1]; Intolerance (Necromancers) [-1]; Likes: Faye Wine [-1];

Skills: Axe/Mace-12 [8]; Carousing-12 [1]; Diagnosis/TL3-12 [2]; Diplomacy-12 [2]; First Aid-15 [4]; Naturalist-12 [2]; Occutism-12 [1]; Pharmacy/TL3 (Herbal)-12 [2]; Public Speaking-12 [1]; Religious Ritual-13 [4]; Shield-12 [4]; Teaching-12 [1]; Theology(Own Relgion)-12 [2];

*Part of the Pact

Divine Inspiration is used for paying for spells (prerequires ignored) And Adavatages from the Cleric's God, the Reaction Roll is based on Man Proposes, God Disposes (p148) in GURPS Fantacy

Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration, is 6 points base then +4 for ever point it provideds (15 in this case) [Powers p.63]

Pact [Basic p.113] Means this the god will only grant this power as long as do don't brake the (50) points worth of Disadvantges you agreed to live by [I noted which disadvantages were part of the pact with a *]

Physical [Basic p.71] means you can also use those 15 points on Physical advatages not just Mental ones and Skills.

Requres Reaction Roll [Powers p.110-111] is a lesser form of Fickle as ther are moderfers on the reaction roll, [Fantacy p.148 Man Proposes, God Disposes] which in this case you Pray to you god and try to confins him to grant your an ability (including spells).

Trigger: Holds Holy Symbol, means you have to Hold your Holy Symbol to Trigger this ability.

All together this means the Cleric has access to a wide range of abilities, spells and other Skills changible with a prayer to thier god, ans long as long as they remain faithful to thier god, and is useing them in a manner suitible with thier god's goals.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Looks good. And borrowing a note from Powers: Divine Favor, that Modular Ability slot (as written it's a single slot, so can't hold multiple small powers) could be used as the core for a set of Alternative Abilities. He could buy powers exceeding the 15cp limit of the slot (but less than 83 cp) for 1/5 cost. For example, Healing (a common schtick of Clerics) wouldn't fit in the slot, but would only cost [6] to buy separately.

I do think the Pact might be going overboard though. In particular, the Pacifism and Vow seem to overlap with the Sense of Duty. The GM will have to be very mindful of making this character feel all [-50] cp of the Pact's disadvantages.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Sure. Like I said in the thread, I have some very specific ideas about the role of "wizard" in a fantasy campaign, and I understand they're not to everyone's taste.

There are lots of sample powers, as people quoted above, and Divine Favor is a good place to go for an alternate take on "Supernatural abilities through GURPS Powers". I wouldn't recommend it for your use because I find the buy-in to be an effective Saint is around 200 pts, and that doesn't leave you much space to also be a wizard at 250 points.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Actull your wrong there... the referace you refer to for a Slotted Modular Ability.

But Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration isn't slotted but a variation of Modular Abilities: Cosmic which isn't slotted but a pool and CAN have multiple small abilities.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ah, my apologies. That does expand its usefulness considerably. Still, at just 15 cp it'll be hard to fit a wide range of powers in it, so I think supplementing it with Alternative Abilities could be helpful.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

As I pointed out the posted Chacter is 150 points... and still has 100 point top spend... the most obvious place spend it is Raising the 15point currently spent

if you were happy spending all 100 point on the modal ability you could have a Total of 35.

Though options like Energy Reserve (Divine) is another good choice.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Okay, magic as powers: My preferred way to do this is modular abilities. If you have powers or psionic powers you can assemble the slotted version of cosmic: I.E. wish for any ability you want, costs 7+5/cp. Otherwise you'll need to stick with the 10/cp cosmic power one. You'll want physical +50%. You'll probably want some limitations: extra time, pact ("Vow: never used edged weapons" and "DoF: never be too rich" are good ones), maybe a nuisance effect (glowing light radiates from you making you unsteathable and rapidly destroying any metal armor you aren't wearing because it costs too much -10%)

Anyway regardless of the details you should end up with roughly a 0% overall modifier. Then sink a bunch of points into this, say... 150 (it is your main shtick) and you now have a 30 or 15 point modular ability slot! Any physical ability you want is yours.


Now buffing is amazingly effective in GURPS. Even more so if you have modular abilities to back it up. For maximum effectiveness and flavor you'll want the following ability: affliction, malediction, melee range C, increased duration (as much as you can get away with). Costs roughly 32 points. Now something important to note about modular abilities? They can enhance existing advantages. So at 15-30 point modular ability slot you had? Well now it can be used to make your affliction better. Either make it nasty and sleep enemies, or make it grant advantages and buff your teammates.

Congrats now you are an effective fighter (save or die attacks), and an effective support unit (granting luck, serendipity, DR, acute (sense), magery, striking ST, chameleon, energy reserve, unfazable, ect.) makes you all around amazing.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I would like to again plug the affliction, malediction, increased duration. 32 or less points, and is down right amazing. Your party will love you.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Guys, first of all let me thank you all for the great feedback so far. The board is indeed very active.

An now for the newbie questions, while I try to keep up:

- I seem to have the impression that modular abilities only let me use once ability at a time, isn't that a HUGE disadvantage?

- I see most people using the "Takes extra time" limitation - doesn't it cripple a caster immensely?

- Last but not least, and regarding skills, can someone point me in the direction of where i can find an example of what would be the list for Wizard! or Cleric! Wildcard skills?

Thanks and cheers.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

That depends on if you buy a slotted modular ability like MA: Super Memorization or a pool modular ability like MA: Cosmic

Slotted ones are cheaper than their pool counterparts but you can only have one ability per slot at a time yet. However pooled vertion you can have as many abilities as you can affort to buy with your pool.

An it doesn't really limit you as most of the time you can't use more than one thing at a time anyway.

The real draw back is it takes longer to change between abilites, but the counter is you have more flexibility, Like my pooled example you can fill the pool with anything you can convince you god it's a good idea to give you. The price is having to stop and pray for it. But on the other hand you not limited to thing you though of before hand.

Only if you get caught by surprise for a fight while you were preparing to do non fight stuff.

People who do the "Takes extra time" fall into either of two main camp they trying to emulate the feel of a different setting or system, like DnD where it took Mages hours to swap out their spells, the emphasize preplanning

The other camp on the other hand are looking to get cheaply enough slots or a big enough pool that will fit the default combat layout, one type of attack plus a little defense and maybe some movement. They only want the extra versatility for non combat tasks where extra time doesn't matter too much.

I'm not sure. but GURPS Thamatology is normally you first place to look after GURPS Magic for alternative magic options.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Thank you roguebfl for the clarifications, and I will take a look at Thaumatology to look for a wizards! wildcard skill set.

I wanted to ask you guys opinion on something else - looking at the "powers as spells" approach it goes somewhat against my idea of the mage with a vast array of spells, offensive, defensive and utility to chose from. It would seem I will always be "stuck" with half a dozen powers/spells to chose from and to improve on, instead of a big pool to chose from and versatility as if, for example, we were using the "classic" GURPS magic system.

In your experience is this so?

I was thinking of creating a starter caster with a much bigger pool of less stronger powers, so that in the future i would have the opportunity to build on a bigger starting basis - and btw, when i mean variety i mean stuff as single attack spells, multiple attacks, shields, armors, anti-magic defenses, fire, ice attacks, utilities such as detecting magic, identifying objects, mass travel, etc. etc.

I have the feeling though that if i chose a very large starting base, none of the powers will be really efficient, and in the long run i will have to focus on but a few anyway... Any thoughts?

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

There is no official (arcane, in D&D terms) spells as powers worked example yet (there is one coming, Chinese Elemental Powers IIRC). There is however GURPS Powers: Divine Favor, that presents divine miracle-workers based on Powers. It is a wonderful book. I wrote Dungeon Saints for the Dungeon Fantasy Pyramid issue to provide some advice and options to adapt it to a dungeonesque game. There is a lens to convert the Dungeon Fantasy cleric, that normally uses spells, into the saint, that uses divine favor. It is a 0 point lens, meaning that the final template is still 250 points.

If you're still getting the hang of the system, I find that you should look at these worked examples. The saint can be built for what you want. Of course you depend on a divine being to grant you your mojo, and that can be a turnoff.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Well Let's take

Holy Beam 2d (burn) (Affects insubstantial, +20%; Increase Range (1/2D 50, Max 200), +15%; Side effect (Blindness), +100%; Requires Gestures, -10%; Requires Vocalizations, -10%; Requires Holy Symbol, -10%; Power modifier (Divine), -10%; Accessibility (Undead only), -30%; Blockable, -10%;) [15] Notes: counts as Holy Sunlight.

That is one possible "spell" that the 150 point cleric I posts could pray for and get pretty much every time they ask. and unlike most missle spells cost no fatigue, actualy the cleric could get more dice of damage they go a cost fatigue version, but 2d does compare well to most Muscle weapons. Any worse sut as well agasin Ghost as Vampites or zombies, or they could prey for Spell that more effectice agasin just one type of undead.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Don't forget perks as well from Power-Ups: Perks. Many of the exotic perks make excellent cantrips and utility spells...all for one point each. You can build your powers from there later as you said.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

This is why you pick modular abilities! You get comparatively weak powers, but they can be nearly anything. Want to look for undead? Get detect undead. Want to blast undead? Get innate attack: burning. Need to heal someone? Get healing. Need to find food in the wilderness? Get a talent for that. (Or doesn't eat!) If you took my advice and got the affliction you can buff the party too! Its really great fun.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

My general gaming experience is that I'd rather have 4-5 really good attacks and utility tricks than a dozen poor ones. Spending time in combat using ineffectual attacks is a waste, after all, so I'd rather consistently throw the 4d attack that takes out an enemy than a 1d attack that bounces against his armor. There's also limits on how great you can be at any point level.

The other problem with "lots of minor effects" is that you lose track of what you can do. If you have 10 attacks to choose from, some of which are highly circumstantial, you're going to forget that you even have 4 of them. So simplify your life and don't buy them in the first place.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ok guys, I am posting my character as it is down below. Please bear in mind my inexperience in character creation.

Additionally, my GM decided to run things a little differently as far as mana goes - he created a different stat called mana which costs 2 points per level, and which is spent if wanted, to cast spells. Additionally, there is a new limitation for spells that cost mana which is -4 points for each point of mana it costs.

Now I have come up with this character since this should be a fast paced campaign, where we will supposedly earn a lot of points per session/adventure - up to 25.... Hence i chose multiple basic powers that i should be able to evolve quickly - this is my roleplayer part thinking that it is more acceptable to develop powers you already have as "potential" (as in the 3rd edition psionics i believe).

Here it is, and let the flaming begin :D


Stats: ST 10 (0); DX: 12(40); IQ: 14(80); HL: 10 (0)
Move 6; Dodge 9

Stats: 120
Advantages: 118
Powers: 22
Disadvantages: -50
Quirks: -5
Skills?: 23
Mana 22
Total: 250

Advantages
Combat reflexes 15
Compartmentalized mind 50
Once a day (-40%) -20
Magic (-10%) -5
Requires gestures and speech(-10%) -5
Instantaneous (+20%) 10
Total 30
Absorption (+100%) 1 10
[Force field (+20%)] 2
Normal DR 1 5
[Force field (+20%)] 1
Ablative DR (5) 5
[Force field (+20%)] 1
Eidetic Memory 5
High Pain Threshold 10
Less sleep (2pts/lvl) 4
Mana regeneration (fast) 50
(Usable 4 times a day) -20% -10
Requires gestures and speech (-10%) -5
Magic (-10%) -5

Mana pool:
MP +20 x 2/LVL = 40 (innate attack only -70%) = 12pts 12
MP +5 x2/LVL = 10 pts 10
Total: 22pts

1- Throw meteor
Crushing 5pts/lvl LVL 6 = 30 pts base (minimo 12 pts) 30
magical -10% -3
Requires gestures and speech -10% -3
No knockback -10% -3
Variable +5% 2
Cost 5 MP -20
Total 3

2- Fire ball (alternate attack from Meteor)
Fire 5pts/lvl LVL 5 = 25
magical -10%
Requires gestures and speech -10%
Variable +5%
Area effect +4radius+100%
Innacurate -3 -15%
Cost 8 MP -32
Total: 43 -32 = 11/5 = 3pts
Fireball with 5D damage - radius 4yards, costs 1.6mp for each 1d damage?

8 points in the innate attack skill

Healing 30pts
cures 2HP for each 1mp spent
- only healing -20%
- capped max 10HP -30%
- magic -10%
- Requires gestures and speech -10%
Total 30 -70% = 9 pts 9

Bull's strike strength +8 striking strength 1 arm (+2D damage) = 24 points
Malediction touch only +70%
variable +5%
magical -10%
Cost 8MP -32pts
Total 24+65%=40-32=8pts 8

Can increase ST to the Target -costing 1MP for each +1ST and 50% of that to maintain every minute.



Now i am still struggling with the skills....

Cheers

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Okay, that's weird, and probably unbalanced, but that's the environment you live in.

Hey, we don't flame around here. We critique, and hopefully politely.

First note in that regard: by convention, point costs are in square brackets, like so:
ST 10 [0]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 14 [80]; HT 10 [0]; Speed 5.5 [0] Move 5 [0]

Perfectly normal stat line. You might want to bump up HT, as the difference between falling unconscious 50% of the time when something bad happens and 25% of the time is pretty significant. Also, Speed is rounded down, not up, so you're at Speed 5.5 and Move 5.

A trait should all be on one line, preferably, for easy reading:
Compartmentalized Mind (Limited Use: 1/day -40%; Magic -10%; Requires gestures and speed -10%; Instantaneous +20%) [30]

Yeah, I have no idea what you're going for here.

HPT and Combat Reflexes are more common on fighter types than mage types, but whatever you want. You're spending a lot of points of the Compartmentalized Mind and Mana Regeneration that might be more useful for additional spells/skills.

Alternate Attacks use the more expensive, not least expensive, attack. So you're looking at 11 points for the fireball and 1 point more for the meteor shower, not 3 and 3. Sorry.

Fine.

Striking ST normally costs 5 points - are you only using it for 1 arm? That'll hurt any two-handed weapon users or unarmed combatants that use bites or kicks.

We know you have:
Innate Attack (Projectile) DX+3 [8]

I'd recommend also picking up the buckler skill (at DX+2) and a medium buckler. I don't know if I'd bother with a weapon skill for this guy except maybe Knife - it's easy and Long Knives make decent parrying weapons. The rest is up to you, to some extent, but Influence and Knowledge type skills help justify that high IQ.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

First of all, mlangsdorf thanks for your feedback so far on this thread, it has been extremely helpful.

The whole absorption and DR (ablative and not) mash up comes from a long line of playing GURPS in an SUPERS (500 point, post modern era) environment as a "super-normal" with 650 points and not a single super power on his body - I guess that the Gyroc skill at 25 and the dodge at 17 made my GM at the time rule that I simply could not gain powers out of the hat (it was out of pure anger for sure, not game balance :D).

From then on, this concept stuck so... I tend to buy stuff like sort of "potential powers" that I can increase later on without much expense - DR is one of those.

I do have the feeling also that I am spending too many points on Compartmentalized Mind and Mana Regeneration, but does it not seem that the mana regen will become essential in the long run? And also, compartmentalized mind seems like completely amazing for a caster... casting a spell and maintaining another? Am i looking at it wrong?

Thank you for the corrections on the point costs and on the structure in presenting the character - I will edit it ASAP.

Ye, the striking strength is for one arm only - none of the fighter types actually uses two handed weapons...

Regarding the skills, I was trying to go for Wizard! and Cleric! but it would seem, since we find no "official" skill list for those, that my GM will not pull any skill set of that kind out of his hat anytime soon...

Medium buckler is an idea that had never actually crossed my mind but it sounds great - maybe in the near future I will get some sort of Force Shield power ;)

As regarding to skills, I was planning on all that could eventually be scholar related as Alchemy, Occult, Area Knowledge, etc...

Again, thanks for the feedback so far, and for the patience.

Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I am trying to stay focused here, but when you give me the weapon and shield tips, everything comes crashing in again as it usually does with GURPS - the idea about the fighter/mage type and further, the archer/mage... FOCUS Edeldhur :D

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Umm I'm Note sure what you're saying here but it seams like you have a renamed but slightly cheaper Energy Reserve (Magic)

and I'm note sure what you mean by -4... but sound like you have a repriced "Cost Fatigue" which is normally -5%/level plus and additional -5% ER only.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Cleric! and Wizard! are entirely official: see Dungeon Fantasy 1 Adventurers.

I expect adventuring wizards to have some kind of combat skills. I know Staff is traditional, and moderately useful if you're using standard GURPS Magic rules, but your guy is set up more as a ranged fighter. Shields are so much more useful for defending against arrows than staffs, so that's my recommendation. It isn't "be a wizard/warrior" but "have some way of defending yourself against likely attackers."

Compartmentalized Mind is very cool, but it's very expensive. I'm not sure about Mana Regeneration: you're spending 30 points (which is 15 Mana Points, essentially) for the limited ability to recover Mana faster. I'd check with the GM if you can buy the Mana Regeneration later and put it off if so.

My question about the DR wasn't "why are you doing this" but "what are you doing?" Sorry if I was unclear.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

You might by as Familiar (25%, constantly, Special abilities) [5] like some cheep putti/cherub or archon. Then put Granted by Familiar ,-40% on thinks like you Mana points, Mana Regeneration, Compartmentalized Mind, DR and other exotic abilities and save a few points that way

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ok, so after last night i took my mage/cleric for a test drive, I wasn't very happy with it [you probably already saw another post of mine around saying that I want to change to an archer type :D) - In any case I still want to understand this and see how it may work, so I was looking at the Modular abilities suggestions again.

My doubts are (and lets see if i have the gist of modular abilities understood correctly):

- As Lamech said above, and if I understood correctly, I would have a 30 or 15 modular ability POOL at 10cp for each cp in the pool - is this correct?
- Also, if i understood, this means that I really need to give Modular Abilities a twist in such a way that I can bring that cost down to an "acceptable level" with limitations - lets say it ends with 5 points per point in the pool and i spend a grand total of 100 points = 20 pool points - is this assumption correct?
- However, from what I have seen, to get such a large cost reduction, the limitations need to be steep, and I have seen them built mostly around cleric like limitations - is this because those are more readily applicable in a gaming way? What if you do not intend to be a cleric and still use modular abilities - are there other limitations that can be as effectively put to use to lower the costs?
- Can i place alternative abilities "inside" the modular pool?

Apologies for continuing with the questions bombardment - I just want to get this straight in my head, and these forums look like the perfect place.

On a side note, it is extremely cool to see all the activity around GURPS - I had no idea.

Thanks,

Edeldhur

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Adding to the above - with the appropriate modifier, skills can be included in the pool correct?

So this means, that I chose a set of skills/powers/advantages within the pool cost that are active at a determined moment?

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

See my example poster early

Advantages: Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration (15 points) (Pact -50%, Physical +100%, Requires Reaction Roll -5%, Trigger: Hold Holy sysbol -20%)[83];

Is such a pool that after modification costs 5 points per pool point and is not limited to mental traits.


the pool form is often used for clerics as saying the source of the pool is answered prayers is an easier concept to understand.

Mages tend to use Slots vetion like Super-Memorization which requires the spell to be in the spell book before it can be memorized into a slot temporarily.

I can see why not IF all the conditions are met currently withing the pool.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ok, adding another question on top of this:

- Lets picture that i pay the points above for the modular ability POOL.

- Since we are using "spells as powers" lets imagine that I create a power costing 4 points, do I have to pay this in addition to the pool itself, or the points already payed assume that I can use any power up to 15 point cost?

- Does this mean I can design multiple abilities to chose from, without any additional cost?

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

You can use any combination of powers up to your pool points that match your limitations on your pool. [default mental only modifiers for physical and/or social available] unlike a slot a pool can have multiple smaller powers in it at one time.

A Cosmic Pool you can design multiple abilities to chose from, without any additional cost. other pools the cost will depend on the pool source, like Mine example the cost is it must please the god in it's use. Which is something you discusses with your GM, Mighy example cleric has a god that is pleased by helping the weak and the injured and slaying undead. So you could pray for an attack spell to use to defend a village form raiders... however not the same spell used to raid a village...

There is also a cost of the time it takes to swap out the points in the pool , for Divine Inspiration its a Prayer that takes a second for point of the pool you are changing.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

So let me get this straight... your GM is giving a flat [-4/Level] points instead of a discounted percentage of the total cost of the power (ie: a Limitation) if the power costs MP..? Is he extremely new at this GURPS stuff?

Your GM ran a high-power modern/UT campaign with no explosions (or other situations in which Dodge doesn't trump everything)? For shame...

Hard to say when we're talking about stuff your GM pulled out of his butt that hasn't been fully explained to us... Do MP refresh at the same rate as RAW ER without Regeneration, or do you need Regeneration to regain them at all? With Fast Regen at Limited Use 4/day and the other Limitations listed, you're talking about paying [30] for an ability that works 4 times/day and restores 1 MP each time, so in the latter case I could see how it might be essential in the long run, but in the former case it's an expensive, nigh-worthless boondoggle.

You might be. The default with Spells-As-Powers is that they don't require Concentration to maintain at all, unless you slap a Requires Concentration -15% Limitation on there. The primary use for a magic-only Compartmentalized Mind with the powers as you've got them built right now would be to allow you to take a Concentrate to cast a spell while you're also taking a full Move to get behind cover, doing an All-Out Defense, punching somebody in the face, casting another spell, etc (which is still pretty handy).

I'd call that about a -60% Limitation on it.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Hello again people,

Even though this thread has been dormant, I am going back at it.

I have kinda finished my 250 point imbuement archer and have began playing with him, but i guess i kinda got a "bug" about creating GURPS characters, and now that I am beginning to understand the rules better I will be giving another go at my original mage/cleric.

My first conclusion is that the very mage/cleric concept is kinda out of place in GURPS - there is nothing preventing me from building on the concept of a cleric and still thread off slightly in the direction of offensive "spells" so I will be a cleric by nature - brandishing holy power, buffing my allies and spewing bolts of holyness to the bad guys.

I am definitely planning on running on modular abilities since my GM is going the "spells as powers" path - now, for a 250 point character... would a... 40 point pool be "adequate" ?

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

A straight 2d ranged attack with enough range to matter is going to run you around 8-15 points, depending on how you enhance and limit. A cool spell, like an explosive fireball or a cone of lightning, can run 20-30 points. A great spell, like a hard to resist area sleep affliction, is going to be 35+ points.

So having 40 points in your modular pool is probably good. However, most modular pools are going to run 120+ CP for that much in the pool, which is a significant investment. It's doable, but you may find yourself severely limited for all that flexibility.

Alternately, a 40 point attack spell and 6 alternate abilities runs you no more than 98 points, and if you can't figure out what you're going to do with 7 different attack spells, you're probably suffering from option paralysis anyway.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Not necessarily. That really depends on what those words mean in the setting and how magic works. In Yrth (as an easily accessible example) a priest who is also a mage is pretty common, and there isn't any such thing as clerical magic. In another setting "mages" might use Realm Magic and "clerics" might use Divine Favor. There's very few character concepts that can fit in the narrative space of most genre fiction that GURPS can't handle.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I truly cannot argue with that, the investment is huge, even if I can somehow manage to lower its cost to like 20% of the total without completely crippling its usefulness.

The thing is that, in my head, having for example an attack ability as the "main one" it would mean that the alternate ones for the sake of consistency, should be something at least attack-related, like a slow, or area, etc.

This means that flexibility implies having either a modular abilities pool or what I am now equating, which would be "power/spell chains" by specialty and alternate from one another - something like:

- single target heal > multiple target heal > disease heal > restoration > etc;
- single attack spell > area attack > area slow > etc;
- single target stat buff > multiple target buff > multi target movement buff:
- concealment (invisibility) > improved concealment (sight + sound) > mass...
- etc

Dunno if this has any legs to stand on without trying it first - I want to be able to do different things, not having to spend whole sessions firing the same laser type "ray of light" beam or dropping the same xD straightforward heal :D

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I actually did not express myself very well: what I meant is that coming from a different type of game system, and even though it is not necessarily like that, I fell into the stereotypical vision of the offensive mage and the supportive priest, when truth is it really does not have to be like that.

On the other hand, the flexibility from GURPS allows a priest to be as offensive as one may want, distancing oneself from that compartmentalized view of things - that is what i meant :D

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

But it can be if you want it to! Dungeon Fantasy does this kind of niche protection, for example.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Published examples allow for great variety in alternate attacks. A character with Divine Powers can have Smite (area effect burning attack versus demons), Holy Fire (short ranged single target overhead smash), and Vampiric Touch (touch ranged steal health) all on the same alternate power group, along with their Healing Touch and Create Food effects. So you may voluntarily choose to limit yourself, but it's not required.

Personally, I like keeping all of my attack powers (however unrelated) in one group, and all my utility/defense powers in one or two others.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

This tends to be self balancing since you can only have one active per "array" at one time, anyway, non-attacks take a Ready to activate, but you can always switch to an Attack as a free action.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ok... I am still fighting with this one, and all of a sudden I came across the most basic of questions - how do you actually heal someone when using a "spells as powers" approach?

- The power "Healing" really does not seem to cut it at the steep 30 point cost, and with 250 point characters I can really imagine me stumbling across those -2 rolls to heal un unconscious fellow. I am not even going to talk about the -6 when attempting to recover a crippled limb...

- Trying to use regeneration affecting others is simply too expensive...

I am kind at a loss here, anyone that can give me some pointers on this one?

Thank you in advance.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Powers: Divine Favors uses Healing as the basis for the Lay on Hands blessing. With Empathic and Cosmic, the cleric doesn't need to roll or spend FP, but transfers his own HP to the subject. A single patient can be treated up to IQ/3 times per day (though it would be fair to add his Power Talent to IQ for that purpose). The total cost of the power is [39], or [8] as an Alternative Ability. Throw on the [20] / [4] point Flesh Wounds blessing (Regenerate 10 HP in 10 minutes) and the cleric can actually deliver a considerable amount of healing, at least while out of combat.

This combo only really works as AAs though. It's fine at [12] points, though even then it's pricier than what you'd spend for the main Healing spells. But at [59] points it doesn't seem worth it. It could actually be cheaper to just afflict the target with Fast Regeneration directly, and would spare the cleric a lot of personal suffering.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Healing (Capped 8 FP -10%; Faith Healing 20%; Power Modifier -10%; Reliable +6 30%) [39] is pricey on the buy in, but lets you make healing rolls at IQ+6, which nicely handles that -2 penalty for unconscious people. Make it an alternate power of something (True Faith: Turning is classic) and it's not too bad.

You can also bring the cost down by reducing the FP cap, or adding other modifiers: I prefer Accessibility (Skin to skin contact, -20%) and Onset (Exposure Time, 1 minute, -30%) to bring it down to 24 points. Now my healer would have to touch the target for 1 minute to heal them, which renders it useless for in-combat healing. Still, the ability to make someone's wounds go away is a pretty potent ability, and shouldn't be cheap.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

You missed the easyist modifier for a Cleric Pact using the disadvantages required by God for their clerics

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

Ok, so.... After much soulsearching, this may be my main healing spell [apologies for the format]:


Healing 30
Xenohealing (All Mammals) [+20%] 6
Reduced Fatigue Cost 1 [+20%] 6
Capped 5 [-30%] -9
Nuisance Effect (Brightly glowing hands) [-5%] -2
Makes hiding difficult
Magical [-10%] -5
Spell Components [-20%] -6
Must say "heal" in Latin
Must gesture with hands
Only 10 times a day (-10%) -3
Reliable +2 3
Total 20

Thoughts?

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

What are you doing here, exactly? Calculating the -5% of [30] and then rounding up before you apply it to the total? It doesn't affect the total here, but in general you want to add up all the Enhancements and Limitations before you do any rounding.

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

My bad here, apologies for the ignorance - should be:

Healing 30
Xenohealing (All Mammals) [+20%]
Reduced Fatigue Cost 1 [+20%]
Capped 5 [-30%]
Nuisance Effect (Brightly glowing hands) [-5%]
Makes hiding difficult
Magical [-10%]
Spell Components [-20%]
Must say "heal" in Latin
Must gesture with hands
Reliable +2 (+10%)
Total (30-4.5=25.5) 26

Towards all the more experienced healers out there, would this seem like an acceptable version of a healing spell for a 250 point starter?

Thanks

Re: Creating a Super Mage/Cleric
 

I'd ditch the reduced fatigue cost to save 6 CP. Otherwise, looks good to me assuming the GM will accept those limitations.