A weird situation
 

Now let me explain the situation we ran into in our last munchkin game. So someone was at 5 levels and equipment included, he kick down the door and he turn over a level 2 monster. The thing is, he was under a curse that made him change his sex so he had a -5 to his combat level. 5 - 5 = 0 but!!! It is said in the rules that you cannot go under 1. Now he is 1 against 2 and lose.

That's where things get tricky, he says that since he his a warrior, he can discard a card and add + 1 to his combat force. He then do it and says 2 vs 2 I kill the monster!

My question is: is he right? I mean that the penalty for changing sex is a -5 but since he was at 5, he dropped to 1 but then buffed himself by 1 to win the fight. Should the full penalty for the sex change still apply? He would still stand at 1 since 6 - 5 = 0.

Sorry for my english, not my native language. I tried to explain myself in as few words as I could :)

Re: A weird situation
 

The rules make a distinction between your Level and your level (also called your combat strenght). The first one means the number showing in your counter. Your Level cannot go down for less than 1. But your combat strenght can go to 0 or less! A Level 1 player with a -5 penaly has a combat level of -4!

So, he isn't right in that, he would have a combat strenght of 0.

But, since he is a Warrior, he can use his Berseker ability and discard two cards to make his level go up to 2. Since this is a tie, he wins.

Note that after he does that other players may still play cards to buff the monster (or to lower his strenght even more).

Re: A weird situation
 

I was mistakenly under the impression that a monster's strength could not go below 1 but that a players could. So a monsters strength can be reduced to 0 or negative numbers but his level can't? Is there a way to even reduce a monster's level?

Re: A weird situation
 

The same works for the monsters: the Level is the value printed in the card. The monster's combat strenght can go to zero or less. It's Level is not changed unless the card say so.

Yes, there are a few cards that say to change the Level of the monster, but in expansions, not on the basic Fantasy set.

Re: A weird situation
 

What if I used my friend way of thinking but with monsters now? Example taken out from my head:

I'm fighting against a level 4 monster and I'm a level 3 munchkin. I play the card baby (direct translation from french, hope it's the good name) which states: -5 to the monster level, minimum 1. My friend then plays a card, +3 to the monster's side and says the monster's now level 4 you lose.

Would he be right? Or the monster's level would still be loser than mine since 4 - 5 + 3 = 2( remember the lvl 1 minimum) and then beat it since I'm level 3.

Re: A weird situation
 

You have an old printing of Munchkin. The new printings of those cards no longer include the "to Level" part. You and monsters now have a Level and a Combat Strength, and while Level cannot go below 1, Combat Strength can.

They changed the rules in 2010 so that virtually nothing changes the level of the munchkin or monsters (except a few cards like Typographical Error and Two-Headed). You have the choice of using the old rules or the new rules when using your old set, but to see that and the other changes made in 2010, take a look here.

Seeing as you completely edited the post, I'll answer this one too. I can't say for the old rules, but with the new rules, it is a Level 4 monster with a combat strength of 2.

Re: A weird situation
 

+ or - to Monster's Level would indicate an older printing of the set in question. As I have older sets of The Good, The Bad and The Munchkin and Munchkin Fu 2, I have some cards that read the old way.

If your cards say that, I'd recommend seeing if it's an older printing. The following quote is from the General Card Changes section of the Munchkin Change Log for the 2010 update found here.

"All Monster Enhancers have had "Level of" deleted from their modifier description. Negative Monster Enhancers no longer say "Minimum Level 1," either."

Re: A weird situation
 

Oh... That would explain everything, it's weird because the guy's game was bought about 2 months ago.... Maybe we don't have access to the new printing here in Canada, the game's in french, that may be the cause.

And I'm a bit confused, does a level 4 monster with a combat strengh of 2 get smashed by a munchkin with a combat strengh of 3? XD

Re: A weird situation
 

One thing that hasn't been addressed: when we changed the rules, we deleted the part that said monsters' combat strengths could not be less than 1.

Re: A weird situation
 

Yes. And I'll add some extra text to get past the character limit this way

Re: A weird situation
 

As you have the game in French, which everyone seems to have missed (please pay attention to the details guys, so you don't give out incorrect or misleading information), then we have no say on what did or didn't happen with respect to the rules changes that happened in the English version in 2010. It's the responsibility of the French (and any other foreign) language licensee supplying Canada to decide whether to keep up with SJG's changes or not. I'm going to assume, for the following statement, that they have not, so it's completely possible to have picked up a brand new, freshly printed, French version of the game and have the old rules.

Re: A weird situation
 

Combat strength is the determining factor in any combat, regardless of what version you have, even before we started using the term combat strength officially. In any version of the rules, combat is decided by comparing the Level of the munchkin side, plus any bonuses, and minus any penalties, to the Level of the Monster side, plus any bonuses, and minus any penalties. So, if a Monster has a Level of 4, and is somehow hit with a -2 penalty, giving it a combat strength of 2, then a munchkin with a combat strength of 3 or better will definitely be able to kill that Monster.

Re: A weird situation
 

FYI: We require all licensees to update their games to our latest version when they issue new printings, and we do our best due diligence to check the files before they are printed.

Edited to clarify: We DO NOT check every word of every translation. Errors of translation do creep in. But there are specific things we know to look for, and we look for them.

Re: A weird situation
 

Well that was the use of combat strengh that confused me in the first place.

Now I cheked this morning on the cards to see if the changes in the updated rules section were made and here's what I found :

The tuba has the + 3 to flee and you can pick a treasure if you succeed to flee.

The halfling: you can discard one card if you failed to run away on your first try to try again.

The baby card: -5 TO THE LEVEL of the monster MINIMUM 1.

So it seems that the changes were made but that the problem with a monster's level is still present, translation problem?? Every monster's enhancer still read to the monster's level.

Re: A weird situation
 

I also checked the wandering monster card. It says their combat strengh are added to each other... And those card were all in the same package when my friend opened his box the first time.

Re: A weird situation
 

Then it looks like we didn't catch that. It's your choice whether you want to play with the cards as written (even incorrectly) or use the official rules and treat those cards as errata.

Re: A weird situation
 

Thanks a lot Andrew!

We will probably play with the updated rules now and make sure to clarify this to any new munchkin player we show the game to.

At least now there will be no more confusion.

Re: A weird situation
 

Ok, I knew I saw this somewhere and I wasn't just making it up.

Re: A weird situation
 

At 2 vs 2 he loses!

Re: A weird situation
 

Nope, he was a Warrior.