Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

I refuse to believe a bladed hand is armour :) Even a Cestus is really dubious on that point.

It's a happy co-incidence that this cutlass with a full hilt basket happens to have this big blade sticking out of it. I know that's not what you mean, and it's totally in tune with the munchkinny attitude of the situation, but oy vey with the eyerolling. My players aren't actually evil munchkins, but they do like to play devils advocate. It's sometimes a bit like being stuck in a debating society.

I think you're missing the point :D (Or adding some sharp ones on the knuckles there)

Player sits down with me to make a character, and says "I want to make a kick ass unarmed karate master who beats up monsters with his bare hands!"

This guy does not want to use a cestus, or a bladed hand. That's not a kick ass unarmed karate master who beats up monsters with his bare hands. It's a little weird but I really do run into people in totally pure Dungeon Bashing games who don't want to compromise the "vision" of their character, even if the "vision" mostly consists of the specifics on how they want to kill monsters.

So, I'd say this guy - the guy who won't compromise on the vision - clearly wants the points back from Vow: Only Fight Unarmed, because he's doing that anyways. He's voluntarily tying that millstone around his neck, I think he should get every point back for it. Especially if he's that dedicated to the concept. And hey, it's even on the template, but it's listed at [-15] and I was questioning this as "enough". But if that wasn't really supposed to be including things up-to and including bladed hands, then that explains it. He needs something else on there too to cover the extra "millstone" he's voluntarily taking on - he's playing a character with TWO vows, and that's where the extra disadvantage value for taking this particularly difficult character concept on is coming from.

If that's Vow: Always Fight Unarmored (or never wear metal armor, or Only wear ninja armor, or Never wear armor over my BL in weight, or whatever) and it also happens to cover "And never use fist-enhancers", the guy going for the "purity of vison" is probably going to want that one too.


I would, for reference, allow any bare-hands fighter in a DF game to violate the disad limit with whatever extra disads are required to represent "I want to be a bare-hands fighter for reals", because those are REAL disadvantages that character will face, and I think they should get the points back for them.

Or they can choose to stay in the limit and have nearly no other disads, and go waltzing through the game Unfettered ;)

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Things are working really, really well in my DF/D&D hybrid game right now.

Players were started at 150 pts (100 base + 50 pt class package). They've moved up now to around 220ish points due to the level system & normal gaming awards I give out. The first couple of sessions when they were weaker went quite well.


One of the nice things for me was, because of the limited number of points, players focused on a smaller number of skills at first (except for the rogue, which was as intended).

The balance we've been able to achieve has been pretty nice. I used a lot of mooks and fodder in the first game (because I wasn't sure how the point level would play out, I basically used that whole first session as a "test"). At the beginning of the game, I let them do the really old school "you walk into a 10x10 room and see six kobolds fighting over the remains of a poorly cooked pigeon", by the end of the game I had the kobolds using traps and controlling the terrain to keep them on their toes.

I had one point where I had to fudge some dice results because it would have wiped the party (this was my fault- I made the trap too deadly).

We're now incorporating D&D's excessive number of hit points into GURPS and enjoying that quite a bit.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Well, I'll just say re: martial artist characters that my inspiration was more Diablo II assassin – complete with katar- and knife-wheel-like things – than anything else. :)

The Vow point values in DF 1 definitely assume that if an item is used for punching or kicking, and gives DR, then it's armor, not a weapon. But yeah, the bladed hand (which matches the above inspiration) is probably a no-no. That still leaves the cestus with big DR and attack-enhancing enchantments. I've never considered that different from "unarmed." You do, after all, use all the rules for unarmed combat to resolve the attacks.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Thats' actually rather easy to do in GURPS. House Rule - Don't make rolls (and potentially don't suffer penalties) for hitting the various HP thresholds. Automatically fall unconscious at -(HP * 5); healing or medical care is required after falling unconscious or the character dies. Automatically die at -(HP * 10).

Suddenly, even a ST 10 character has 60 HP and doesn't actually die until it has lost a total of 110 HP .. assuming it gets medical care or healing magic applied once its' fallen unconscious. Selectively apply this to the PCs and whatever NPCs you want it to apply to; keep the mook / worthy / boss rules as per normal if you use those in your game.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

That's effectively giving all PCs Unkillable I, with the added benefit of covering KO rolls up to -5xHP. I'd say that's going too far. I'd much rather do what (IIRC) Icelander does, and allow PCs to purchase Injury Tolerance, Extra HP and/or Vitality Reserve. This gives a more gradual effect as the PCs "level up", and draws a clearer distinction between front-line fighters and support characters.

Also, Remember that a level 1 D&D character likely has fewer HP than a GURPS character (depending on edition) and is automatically KO'd / killed at 0 / -10 HP. It's entirely possible for a weak level 1 D&D character to be incapacitated from falling into a 10' pit, or die to a few blows from their housecat. If trying to replicate the feel of low-level D&D (for whatever reason) giving them 60+ HP is not the way to go. In fact, you could make an argument that they should have Easy to Kill, or even Fragile: Unnatural (die automatically at -1xHP)!

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

You'd be amazed how many NPCs sprout Easy to Kill and Fragile: Unnatural after you have a party of 150 point PCs vs a pack of 20 mind-controlled wolves. HT 14 and Fanaticism. AGH.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Erm.

The poster I responded to said they were incorporating D&D's excessive amount of HP; that means they weren't talking about Level 1 characters as those don't have an excessive amount of HP (as you also noted).

I responded with how I have implemented precisely that effect (excessive HP, no death spiral) in GURPS before. I've also used Icelander's ideas on top of my implementation before. (I run high point value games. DF is low level stuff to me. Hell, MH is a tad lower than my preferred level given that I prefer 600/~/~ characters and it uses 400 point templates. Assuming we're not talking supers, where I go into the sub-10k values instead.)

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

I guess I'm just advocating using IT:DR instead of the house rule you suggested. Then again, I haven't played at the point levels you're talking about, so maybe it's necessary to withstand the obscene damage output of Innate Attacks. If it works for you, go with it. (I still think it should be represented by Unkillable I though.) I just wouldn't use it at the point levels of a DF game.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Yeah, I'd draw the line at the Bladed Hand too, and include the cestus under "unarmed".

If someone really had it be central to their concept to fight with NOTHING on their hands though, I'd just be like "magic tattoos! Rings of the hurty fist!" Meh.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

If "Monks" exist as a normal (albeit rare) -- and most importantly -- viable profession, there should be magic tattoos and "rings of the hurty fist" around, unless the disciplines that generate barefisted badasses eschew the aid of magic. In which case I'd allow some nifty Chi Talent power-ups.