Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Yeah, 3rd edition monks were terrible. They worked with one or two very crazy builds, but if optimising you just dipped and moved on. Of cause 3rd edition melee fighters of any sorts pretty much all dipped into core classes and then moved on when optimising because it didn't hinder them at all (unlike with spellcasters) - but in the end they still generally came behind casters in the upper levels regardless of how they were built, monks more so.

That said, not everyone optimises and nor everyone feels the need to be equivalent in power as everyone else in the group. Of cause in GURPS you generally should be equal with the same cp investment, but some styles of fighting are just more cp intensive than others.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Unless everyone builds identical characters, they will not be equal in capability.

The most important (and perhaps only) considerstions are that each PC fills a useful role in the party and the player is happy with this role.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Unarmed fighters do best in games with lots of combat in situations where characters are required to be unarmed.[1]

This is most drastically the case in GURPS, where it's as easy or easier to learn how to fight with a weapon as to fight unarmed, weapons don't cost points and do give a major damage multiplier (which unarmed fighters have to spend points to match), and weapons provide a significant defensive advantage (that unarmed fighters can't get without spending more points).

GURPS intentionally handicaps characters that rely on unarmed combat vs armed opponents. It's a clear design decision built into the game at many points in the combat system. Fundementally, an unarmed-only combatant is starting the game with a hidden disadvantage worth a really significant amount of points even if he hasn't taken a Vow to only fight unarmed... and if he has taken said Vow, said Vow probably isn't worth nearly enough points to make up for the handicaps he's suffering under. It's [-15] points in DF 1, and I'm not sure that's enough. . .

It costs 11 points to upgrade both your arms to Striker Limbs and add Blunt Claws, and I'm not sure the left-over -4 points covers "Never have any ranged attacks, never have damage types other than crushing, never have reach better than 1 without risky combat techniques (and reach 1 involves kicking, which is risky in and of itself), never risk damaging your own striking surfaces, and so forth"

[1] This is also the situation where characters with small, low damage weapons can shine, because they can sneak them in where the other guys can't sneak in a maul or zweihander. THIS is where your Thief or Rogue should should be the combat star with a knife - bringing a knife to a fistfight beats bringing a knife to a swordfight or worse, archery fight.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Intentionally and realistically, yes. My solution was to turn a genre switch on - a rule that folks with TBAM, and many (but not all) monsters, get to count their unarmed attacks as armed for purposes of being injured on a parry. So a 250-point DF martial artist with TBAM can punch away, risking only injury from hitting hard surfaces, but a sword parry won't injure him. Many monsters are the same way.

It's not at all realistic, but it fits the genre, and my players seem to think it's pretty cool. It makes "and your parry gets to cut the monster" a nice bonus, and makes Chaos Monk types a bit more dangerous to high-Parry knights.

All that said, if you want to make a 125 point martial artist using DF15, you can. A "monk" type is a nonstarter due to lack of points, but an unarmed fighter who can eventually learn cool esoteric skills and buy sweet powers is there - check the Skirmisher, especially with options 4, 5, and 6. You just won't be a full-out high-jumping Power Blow using martial artist. Yet.
It's not the only way to do it, but it's probably the most like a D&D "monk" starting out. Right down to AC 10. ;)

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

We used the same house rule in mlangsdorfs DF game as a low grade patch. It's basically a free set of striker limbs without the damage bonuses, which would be pretty cheap even if you made PCs pay for it. I don't know if I'd call it more than 5 points to count all your unarmed attacks as weapons for that purpose if I were inclined to charge for it (no other benefits at that price though).

The "problem" for a DF martial artist or monk type character who's supposed to be an unarmed fighter, is that he's still stuck with the other problems:

• No trading money for swing damage or even simple damage bonuses
• No trading money for other damage types
• No access to quality and magical weapon upgrades
• Must make physical contact with the enemy (risking spikes, acid oozes, and what have you)
• Only risky uses of reach 1 attacks, no access to reach 2+ attacks at all (outside of I suppose some risky combinations with a kick, which is getting into "shooting yourself in the face" territory)

And absolutely, those are deliberate and realistic. No arguments there: if they weren't realistic, armies would be full of open-handed fighters, not armed fighters - so much cheaper. I'm just not sure -15 points for the vow to only fight unarmed is nearly good enough, as it seems to take more than 15 points to sort of even that up.

There's the rather munchkiny Crushing Attack (+1 damage; ST Based, +100%; Chi, -10%; Melee Attack: Reach C, 1, -20%) [4] which upgrades you to swing+1 damage. As a GM I'd handwave that it's Swing +0 for punches at reach C, Swing+1 for kicks at reach C,1 (usual Kicking rules) in exchange for getting full Karate bonuses and using all your Karate maneuvers with it.

I'm dubious over whether you need to stack striker limbs with that Crushing attack, or whether it would benefit from the damage bonus at all. Ditto Claws. But that's a good upgrade on damage for 4 points that will scale up better than an unarmed fighter usually can hope for (Power Blow can be used with a Sword as much as it can be used with a fist, so Power Blow isn't the equalizer at all here).

That still leaves you with restricted damage types, range, the contact requirement, and being locked out of points-free improvements from loot for the rest of the campaign. DF being such a loot-centered genere, that last one seems particularly egregious.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

If we had a martial artist type in our game I would definitely be including fist-wrappings, bracers, etc that let you magic up your unarmed attacks.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Indeed, the reason why DF 1 doesn't say that you can't have Mighty Flaming Silver-Coated Brass Knuckles of Penetration is because I didn't mean to exclude fist weapons. Being inexpensive, brass knuckles ($10) can be had in, say, meteoric or silver variations for cheap: $200. The myrmex ($20) and cestus ($50) are even better, as they can carry weapon and armor enchantments. And of course the bladed hand has rather cinematic stats, but that suits DF . . . and it works fine with Karate, and gives swing damage.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

I'm pretty sure all of those violate the Vow: Only Fight Unarmed though :/

Although if that's more the scope of the vow (in a DF context anyways), then Vow: really really fight unarmed clearly has room to be worth more points as a disad and solves that concern I had.

I wouldn't really think about this outside of DF, and possibly some kinds of martial arts centered games, where highly trained open handed fighters might be mixing it up with highly trained weapon-using fighters. Most other situations it really makes sense.

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

As I said in my previous post, these aren't really the case . . . The GM could be mean and not allow bladed hands, enchanted fist weapons, armor and weapon echantments on full-glove fist weapons, etc. – or allow them, but not let Chi abilities and skills work with them – but that isn't what DF actually says. The character was designed with the basic idea in mind that martial artists would eventually procure gear like Penetrating Bladed Hands or a Mighty Unyielding Cestus of Warding, and ultimately use these to rain down Power Blows.

That's why you wear an Impenetrable Dragonhide Cestus with DR 10!

That's the tricky one. I'd suggest allowing some of the ranged chi-blast silliness from anime and video games to get around it (Martial Arts, pp. 45-47), though Throwing Art with weapons that do swing damage (especially light, cheap ones, like boomerangs and smaller hungamungas) is terribly nasty.

I'm starting to feel like martial artists need a splat that spells all this out . . .

Re: [DF] 125 pt start?
 

Hm, I guess one could read it that way by the strictest interpretation, but I certainly never have. Not donning fist protection is "fight unarmored." It's just a happy coincidence that some fist protection improves damage. Anyway, that Vow isn't mandatory or even especially likely as an option . . . Mostly, I see Code of Honor [-15] and Obsession ("Perfect my art at any cost!") (12) [-10], like classic bad-movie martial artists.