Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Doug, you took mostly defensive/support learned prayers. Had you taken more combat oriented learned prayers, such as Guide My Hand or Righteous Fury, you would have more ability to kick nonundead ass in the name of the lord. Those prayers in my article where created specifically for the Warrior Saint, because baseline, Divine Favor is a little too defensive/pacifist for DF.

I'm not saying that you're doing it wrong, I'm saying that yours isn't the only viable build.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Not at all; my healing focus was somewhat steered by the group needs, and so I took the defensive bent for learned prayers. I recently picked up Protection from Evil (Enhanced), which can definitely be used offensively, and saving up for DivFav 9, Guide My Hand, and Smite is a long-term but desired goal.

Edited to Add: The key is really to start with "what parts of the Divine Favor/Warrior Saint package shall I focus on?" If you say "healing," you get a build like mine. If you say "kicking butt," then you'll get a different build. In no cases,however, will you be better than the dedicated warrior, the dedicated cleric, or the dedicated magical smackdown artist. You're "multi-class," and you pay for breadth with depth.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Poor Cadmus is stuck in a party with two unusually mobile characters (a gargoyle who cheats by flying, and a scout who ran the first adventure with No Encumbrance and a base Move of 7 - but cloth "armor"), one of whom was also ranged (the scout, obviously). So this particular problem is really acute for him.

The two really mobile melee templates are Barbarian and Swashbuckler (note, both lightly armored!) Going for a mobile holy warrior in decent armor requires investing money and points in a mount and the skills required to use it in combat, or investing the points in a racial template like Gargoyle or Winged Elf (and some Flying related skills!). Both of these will naturally suck points away from your Holy Warrior-ness/Warrior-Saint-ness. Or you just buy a lot of ST and Move, but again, that costs - the ST does double duty for smashing in combat but you have to divert from cool holy stuff to do that.

A solution for mobile holy warriors is to go without heavy armor, but that can be tricky :)

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

I should also add that the encounters in question were nearly all "open field" type of battles, where either through my own inexperience or tendencies, or just how it went down, the premium was placed on movement.

Case 1: A lone guy crosses a bridge, and gets attacked by a snake. The fast party members fly/swoop over and between the victim successfully grappling a frackin' PYTHON (very good rolls!) and the mobile characters, the battle was over before I got there, walking along at encumbered Move 4.

Case 2: We were ambushed by goblins or something. Our GM said "position yourselves" on the map. I took a position that was a few steps away from the nearest foe. Others got right up in their faces; this also happened to (1) block my approach, and (2) they were such effective killers, as befits their niche, that by the time I had my turn, all that group were dead.

Case 3: Any time Bruno's scout is involved. :-)

Sorta kidding. Staver (her character) is very good at double-shooting arrows, and that tactic has been pretty effective against the mook-level foes we have faced in the past. Again, that's Staver's niche, and he's good at filling it.

Is this a "problem" with the Warrior-Saint, or even with Cadmus' build?

Not really. We had a hard fight vs. a nasty undead Samurai with a two-handed no-dachi and Broadsword-22 or something. Cadmus used Protection from Evil to push the guy around (taking wounds, since you need PoE(Enhanced) to drive him away at Reach 2+) and keep him from the fellow party members, and eventually used a prayer for Smite (not a learned prayer) to do 11 injury to the guy, killing him after he'd been whittled a bit.

He's also got DR 4-6 on every limb, and DR 9 or so on his head; he's got the ability to stay standing for quite a while in a hot fight.

He pays for this in mobility, weapon skills. Tthey're not bad, as you can see . . . but I like to try tricky stuff, like grappling, Sweeps, and alternate locations rather than TA(Neck); that's a play-style thing. It limits my effectiveness because I am not always rolling vs. my highest skill.

Also, I assumed we'd do more front-line formation tactics; this group hasn't had to do a lot of that yet. That only cost me a couple of quirks,though (Shield Wall tactics, mostly) as of this time. It may well come in handy later.




All of this is true, and reinforces Kuroshima's comment about how I selected my build. You just can't do everything well on 250 points with a mixed template. Such is life.

It would probably mean that instead of being an Axe-and-Shield fighter, I'd need to rely on my mobility to be something like a mounted lancer (requires an expensive horse using the rules we have, around $2500 to $4000), or an archery specialist to strike from a distance, and then KEEP your distance. One could also focus on the shield as a defense.

Or, which is what I'm going to do, save up money to buy something like Lightened Orichalcum Medium Plate. That's like DR 10 AND 3 lbs. Win/win.

:-D

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

I should also note that when it comes to the after-battle patch-up, I think Cadmus has proved to be more than the "backup" healer he was billed as. Given (say) four hours of time, I can heal 24 HP worth of injury and come out fully refreshed at the end of it. Given a day of down-time (say, 12 hours), I can increase this to 72 HP.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

What about inventing some variant Learned Prayers that give DR only when the character isn't wearing metal armour?

Of course, of ordinary clothing can be Enchanted with +5 DR as cheaply as can mail, then it's not a very big Limitation, but it should still be able to shave off a few CP.

And it's a fairly reasonable world house rule that it costs more to Enchant DR into light armour than into heavy armour, and still more again to Enchant it into non-armour clothing.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

When I created the Warrior Saints, I made some test builds. You can make a decent melee fighter, if it's all you can do, with 250 points. By decent I mean equal or better than a combat focused barbarian, and almost as good as the pure melee (Knight and Swashbuckler). You can also make a decent healer, but your fighting ability will be quite subpar. Finally, I think you can make a halfway decent anti-undead/anti-demons guy. You won't heal or fight well here.

Mind you, the beauty of Divine Favor is that no matter what, you can try to fill those niches in times of need, if the dice are with you. In fact, you can be a "good enough" backup healer with just divine favor, as long as you don't want to heal in combat (take your time, make a theology roll and pray loudly, to get +2 or +3 to petition rolls. If the need is great, the party is wounded and the main healer is bleeding out, you may get a bonus to reaction just because. With both, it's quite likely that you'll get at least Lay on Hands to get the main healer up and running)

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Cadmus is our primary healer AFAIK. Michel has, I think, only Minor Healing and Healing Slumber and Elessar only Minor Healing (and of course he could use Wild Talent for Great Healing, once).

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

This is how it wound up, but during character creation, I was definitely given the impression Cadmus was backup. By the time I got done shifting points, with Divine Favor 8, Lay on Hands, and Flesh Wounds, he wound up being the primary in terms of effectiveness, but I didn't know that until we actively discussed it.

Cadmus' role was originally scoped as part of the "front line" of fighters, who can heal when the primary healer, whose name currently escapes me, got tuckered out.

In fact, we've never formed a line of battle, and Cadmus' healing gifts are substantial. Plus the general "buff" he can occasionally (if unreliably) give the party . . . the "treat a thigh-deep swamp like ankle-deep grass" thing was subtle but very cool.

The real moral of this story is that I should focus on what my character's sheet actually says, and "do the math." He can basically heal 1 HP every 10 minutes with LoH/Flesh Wounds . . . like recovering Fatigue (but it's not). He can push Undead away with (effectively) True Faith. He can ensure fallen foes can't rise as undead. And he carries enough DR that mundane foes by and large won't put him out in one shot, while being a good-enough fighter that you can't ignore him. His damage is 2d+2 cut (crush with an opposed hammer) with his primary weapon, so he's a one-to-three shot killer; more so if he chooses to go for his Targeted Attack (Neck/Axe swing).

Where he has thus far lacked is
* Mobility. He has had a bad time getting to the fight. That's been my fault as a player, more often than not.
* Inevitability. Even vs. mooks, his preferred fighting style starts with non-lethal blows and moves up to head-removal in stages. This is part of his Code of Honor, but it leads him to try stuff based off of Wrestling-13 rather than Axe/Mace-18. I will be fixing this by bumping up his grappling skills and techniques over time.

He's a FUN character to play. Dungeon Fantasy and the Warrior Saint both are somewhat new to me. I've not PLAYED a GURPS (or any other system) game in YEARS . . . I'm rusty.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

I get the impression this is a forum game. Is it open to viewing by the public?