Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Your welcome. Hmm
Light And Darkness Sunbolt and Blur.
Knowledge Glass Wall, Invisibility, Wizard Eye, Rember Path, History line,
Pathfinder can be rally handy.
Illusion & Creation Create Animal is the go to spell for me here. Lot of prerequistes but most of those lead to some useful spells.
Food I like to go for Season an Mature, maybe Preserve food. Not a lot of real utility but great campaign flavor. Just to say your eating good tasting food is nice, can even bring a few favors your way.
Earth Entombment is nice but Earth Vision has a lot of uses in delving.
Body Roundabout is fun. Good buffing/Debuffing college.
Animal I go for Rider within, Shapechange if I can afford it.
Air I really like ball Lightning. its just one of the fun missile spells and can be used for distraction and indirect fire. To get it you need Lightning which is a decent missile spell in itself and can handle some basic move the air around stuff.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Related question: what size Energy Reserve should DF wizards/clerics go for?

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Varies. High Skill is better for repeated combat, most say about the same as their HT so they are most efficient with Recover energy and resting.
DF introduces Power Objects and your doing this on the Cheap anyhow.
I would give them ER 3 [9] and let them buy it up later.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

As the writer of the Dungeon Saints article, I must say that Divine Favor requires a hefty investment in DF, meaning that at 150 points, regular clerics will have a significant edge, given that each spell only costs 1 point. I built and tested them for 250 points, you will need to come up with your variations to cut them down to 150 points. Warrior Saints will be little more than sub-par Knights until they get some more points, as they are already dividing their focus between acting as a divine channeler and as a warrior. Mind you, Holy Warriors aren't in a much better position. Build some, and see for yourself. I can help you optimize them though :-)

As for the usefulness of DF7:Clerics, it will be of limited use, but you can use the variant Holy Might powers as inspiration for miracles. I didn't have the space to include variant clerics in the article, as they would have required me to come up with a lot of new miracles. Mind you, you would still use the skill and advantage changes from the variant clerics when building variant saints, but the spell lists are one of the defining features of the book, and one you won't use.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Thanks for the warning on the 150 point limitations. The ninja seems a bit weak too. That's okay though, I will probably "level" these PCs very quickly.

Would it be okay to use both kinds of clerics in my game? In other words, you can be cleric but you could also make a Saint or Warrior Saint? They'd just be another variation of divine magic, right?

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Ooh, Temporary Disadvantage: Enemy... I'm going to have to use that at some point.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Both kids of clerics can coexist without issues, I've done that, and it works. Of course having both in a party will mean that they cover the same niche. Douglass Cole is playing a Warrior Saint in a party that includes a cleric, I will let him tell you what issues, if any, he had.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

A wizard-cleric and a scholar-cleric, now, actually.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Ah, Cadmus' story.

Firstly, the ground rules. There are a few house rules in play that Crakkerjakk can tell you about, but the number of allowed disads was pretty low relative to basic DF. But we also got some more points. We wound up about 280-point characters with something like -30 points in disads. Net of 250 still, so it worked out.

Here's Cadmus, hidden behind a "Spoiler" tag because the printout is so darn long.


Issues: You have to know how to use your stuff. Not just "I hit him with my mace" (or in my case, "axe"), but the Warrior Saint is really built around Learned Prayers. And the really good ones, the ones that give you your niche, require Divine Favor of 6-9, which is PRICEY. It's worth it in the situations where you can just, say, lay down SMITE awesomeness on a bunch of undead, but it's still, as they say in my neck of the woods, "spendy."

You're a Jack-of-two-Trades. You can fight, but not nearly as well as a real fighter like a Knight or Barbarian. You can heal . . . actually, you can heal pretty well. You take Lay on Hands (DivFav 8 required, IIRC) and (very important) Flesh Wounds. You take others' damage into yourself, but heal it up at 1 HP per 10 min with Flesh wounds.

What you lose, relative to spell-clerics, is versatility. The "real" Cleric (as sir_pudding said, Wizard-Cleric) in our group (he might not just be a cleric) has some really generically useful smackdown he can throw around (Stunball is a favorite).

You also need to realize that what you lack in "yes, I can cast this spell, or use that prayer, with regularity" you gain in unreliable but occasionally truly mighty General or Specific prayers.

Thus far, Cadmus has asked his God (Pharasma, from Paizo's world):

* Let their journey through a swamp be eased. It was granted, and the normally deep and tiring swamp was like a rubberized track - spongy but not tiring. Clothes were not soaked, mosquitos didn't stop for lunch, etc. We arrived a lot faster and a lot more refreshed than otherwise.

* He prayed for Smite to destroy an undead super-samurai guy who was doing a really good impression of a Cuisinart. It was granted, and Smite earns its name.

* He prayed to exorcise a spirit; that worked, but the spirit repulsed him

* He prayed for guidance in an upcoming battle; he rolled pretty well, and got a divinely inspired "tug" that got the party out of a really confusing bind as to what to do next

There were a few other examples, some of which failed.

So, he's versatile, but sometimes he can really help the group out.

The points sunk into Divine Favor and Learned Prayers, though, are many. I've got 67 points there, which means my Holy Warrior! skill ain't all that great, and my fighting ability (on a DF scale) is above average, but not great. I don't have a lot of room for really cool stuff, so I lop off heads a lot with TA. Functional, but not as narratively varied as I like.

Lastly, you have to watch out for the high-move or ranged types in your own party. They can get to the battle and end it before you get to engage, so if you want to get your kicks being more SMITE than HEAL, the straight-up Holy Warrior might be more your cup of tea. Either that or buy a horse. A FAST horse. That being said, your biggest niche will be (with DivFav 9, especially) laying waste to undead types, and your'e a very, very powerful healer with the right learned prayers.

TL; DR. He's a hoot to play. But if you want to be both Warrior AND Cleric, you're going to need 350-400 points to make it feel like you're good at both. And at that level, any dedicated template will, of course, be better in their own niche.

Re: [DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard
 

Big?

Also notice the Item of Power thing, or whatever it is called, in DF1. They don't recharge, except when you pay $$$$ in the town, though, so innate FP and ER should be relied upon the most.