[Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Innate Attack enhanced with Malediction uses a Quick Contest of user's Will vs. the target's Will instead of ordinary attack-defense rolls (p. B102). Inanimate objects has Will 0, so they must resist a Malediction-enhanced IA with their Will 0 (provided the attack in question would affect it at all). See this post for full discussion.

E.g., assume I have a Burning Attack enhanced with Malediction. If I have Will 10 and use my ability on an ordinary wooden box (an inanimate object with HT 12 and Will 0), then there will be a Quick Contest between my Will 10 vs. the target's Will 0 as the resistance roll, not my Will 10 vs. the target's HT 12.

However, Psionic Powers rules otherwise: it's quite explicit (see the Inanimate Objects and Resistance box, Psionic Powers, p. 12) that inanimate targets don't use Will but they use HT -- which is typically far higher than their Will 0 -- when they resist Malediction.

See Pyrokinesis ability (pp. 56-57) for an example. It's a set of alternative abilities but when I intend to use it on an ordinary wooden box to set it aflame, it works just as an Burning Attack enhanced with Malediction. However, the rules say that there's a Quick Contest between my Will 10 vs. the target's HT 12 as the resistance roll, not my Will 10 vs. the target's Will 0.

Then, is there any way get rid of this contradiction?

• P. 12 of Psionic Powers should be ignored. It's about the cases where "the ability is normally resisted by an attribute the object does not have", but since inanimate objects do have the score Will 0 and it's not "an attribute the object does not have", the text in the box is irrerevant.
  
  
• "Inanimate targets resist with their HT instead of Will 0" is a inherent limitation for psionic abilities, and there should be some (unwritten) counterbalancing benefits. They should intrinsically combine and become a zero-cost feature.
  
  
• Or some other way?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Specific Rules override General Rules when applicable. Psionic Powers has specific rules as they apply to the powers within Psionic Powers; and so the Psionic Powers rules are used when adjudicating the powers within Psionic Powers.

If you're the GM and don't wish to use the specific rule and would rather use the general rule ... then use the general rule. If you're the player, try negotiating with the GM.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

It's not a contradiction, it's a ruling specifically for psionic powers (and thus for Psionic Powers). That book isn't a generic toolkit like Powers was -- it's a worked example. So it happily makes judgment calls and takes advantage of special effects to achieve a specific vision of psychic abilities.

In GURPS, many abilities (powers, spells, etc.) that are resisted by Will succeed automatically vs. a Will 0 rock. But many other abilities resisted by Will don't work at all against inanimate objects. So I decided that this book would split the difference with a reasonable ruling: If an inanimate object is targeted with a resisted-by-Will effect, it resists with HT. This is just one of the many, many special effects and rule changes rolled into psionic abilities, as explained in Chapter 1. And yes, they all more-or-less balance out.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

It's true that Psionic Powers has specific rules, but if some game effects work advantageously or disadvantageously, they should be reflected on point cost. GURPS adopts a point-based system.

Sorry, but I don't see what benefits and what drawbacks balance out to zero-cost here. My argument is simple: when an ordinary wooden box is targeted by a Burning Attack with Malediction, it must resist the attack with its Will 0, so if the same box can attempt a resistance with HT 12 instead of Will 0, it's clearly disadvantageous from the ability user's standpoint. If there's an disadvantageous effect, then (a) the user should pay a suitably cheaper cost or else (b) there should be some other advantageous effects to balance out.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Switching an ability from against Ht to against Ht for inanimate and Will for animate certainly sounds less effective than against Will for all.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Powers (detailed in Powers) can have minor positive and negative traits. For example, GURPS Psionic Powers can use powerful Power Techniques and some other positive little bits.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

What do you charge for the ability to form gestalts?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

That is already a feature of Powers.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

All of them? I'm pretty sure Psionics enjoy some of the special benefits that some other Powers don't.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Even if that were true and it isn't automatically (try to make sense out of forming gestalts for the bio or electronic power sources) that doesn't answer the question.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The gestalt thing was what I replied to and technically any Power the GM feels is appropriate is ok to form one.
The main criteria being they have to have the same power source (which Psionics do) though even that can be waived for powers with a similar focus (say Fire powers) but different source (say a Super and magic).
This is described under Stunts, combing powers (Powers p170 to 172)

As for the argument that changing resist by Will to resist by HT should be an enhancement or cost more I do not dispute the argument.
However some might argue (and indeed have on these forums
) that resist by Will means targets with no Will are immune. If that stance is taken then a good case for a 0 point trade off exists.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I believe it does.
The question you asked that I quoted and replied to was "What do you charge for the ability to form gestalts?"

My answer is its a default switch from Powers with no point cost.

My more detailed answer follows....
Sure it wont work for all powers (and not all campaigns will allow the option) but that is a case by case basis and up to the GM to handle.
However as RPK said Psionics assumes certain setting choices in order to present a campaign option that is ready made and usable out of the box.
This is no different then Magic, RPM or several of the Thaumatology books.
To present a workable mechanic that is ready to use without designing every power and rule or setting switch the author has to take on the role of the GM and make setting assumptions for him.
However they are explained and typically other options are at least talked about and some in great detail which allows a GM to modify such a book to tweak for flavor.
But without that assumption you really cant have a worked project like this. And a lot of people wanted exactly that.

Oh and I can see many examples of electronic power sources combining and not just in the Supers genre. Pulp also has done that.
Bio powers are less likely but still possible such as two shape shifters merging, symbionts, retroviruses, etc.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

A power source can have Beneficial Options and Limiting Options (GURPS Powers, p. 174) that define the flavor of using the source. If a GM feels these aren't balanced against each other, they can adjust the power modifier cost or require an Unusual Background (p. P175). Adding a single source option, such as the ability to form a gestalt, is unlikely to be enough to require an additional cost of some sort unless the source was already close to being unbalanced (as the examples of source-specific rules on pp. P175-178 demonstrate, there's no need to make sure the options are balanced one-for-one -- getting the flavor of the source right is more important). If some psis can form a gestalt and others cannot, that might be worth a small Unusual Background in the form of an Extra Option perk, possibly one perk per ability that can be used in the gestalt.

GURPS Psionic Powers is consistent with (and elaborates on) the suggestions laid out in GURPS Powers as to the Psionic source-specific options (pp. P177-178), so that makes a good summary of the Psionic source options.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

"More" reasonable, I would have said ;)
My own preference is that such attacks, targeting a stat the target does not have, do nothing. This avoids interpretations that seem nonsensical, NOI to those who think otherwise. I suppose a lot of the problems I have with the official ruling go away if I can make sense of how a particular attack is working, but explanations on the weird ones often fly right by me :/

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I generally don't permit contests vs Will for anything other than mind-affecting powers, which makes rocks immune, but there's no real evidence for rocks having Will 0 anyway; they have IQ 0, Will n/a.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Certainly.

What is the point cost for multiple feat penalties, for repeated attempt penalties, for additional contact bonuses, for situational modifiers, for extra effort, for the ability to create/use psi techniques, for power defenses, for forming gestalts, for ...? I'm not seeing any point costs for those (GURPS Psionic Power -version) Psionic advantages and disadvantages. Why do we get those for "free" but not this for "free" as part of the power modifier?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

That's because you're only looking at this one rule. See Powers and Options (p. 6) for a rundown of some of the features that psi has. It has benefits and drawbacks, and these things roughly cancel out. You have to look at the forest, not each individual tree.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

No it isn't. Beneficial and Limiting Options are specific to a Power. It doesn't make sense for most Biological powers to be able to for gestalts nor does it make sense to allow Pressure Secrets to cripple anything other than Chi powers.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

That's discussed in the box on p. 6 of Psionic Powers. Those are optional rules applied to every individual abilities that belong to psionic powers, which are partly advantageous and partly disadvantageous to psionic abilities in comparison with "raw" advantage (compare Jerry and Mark in the box example). Overall, they more-or-less balance out to zero-cost.

However, Pyrokinesis ability, which is intrinsically limited with "Nuisance Effect, Inanimate targets resist this attack with HT instead of Will 0", seems to have no counterbalancing benefits in comparison with a "raw" Malediction-enhanced Burning Attack.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I'm not discussing "mind-affecting" abilities. Pyrokinesis is an example of Burning Attack enhanced with Malediction, which is not a "mind-affecting" ability.

A common misconception is to confuse (a) "mind-affecting" abilities with (b) abilities resisted by Will. Many hostile abilities that allow the targets to resist with Will are mind-affecting, but not all. Burning Attack enhanced with Malediction is an example of abilities that fall into the category (b) and not the category (a).

Malediction-enhanced Burning Attack is resisted with Will. When an inanimate object are targeted, it resists the attack by rolling a Quick Contest using its Will 0 (our Line Editor assured). It neither uses its HT as the resisting score nor automatically wins the Quick Contest! If either is true, it's clearly disadvantageous -- it should be a limitation on the attacker's ability.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The box on p. 6 of Psionic Powers lists optional rules applied to every abilities that belong to psionic powers equally, such as extra effort, gestalts, psi techniques, penalties on repeated attempts, crippling on critical failures, etc. That's not what I'm trying to discuss.

Not all psionic abilities have the "Will by sentients / HT by non-sentients"-type resistance score. Some work on sentients and nonsentients equally, some work only on sentients, and some work on non-sentients too but are resisted with HT if the target is non-sentient. I'm not looking at "the forest" but I'm looking to an "individual tree" (Pyrokinesis ability), but it's because "this one rule" is the what I'm trying to discuss.

Unless otherwise modified, Malediction added on an Innate Attack is resisted with Will (p. B102) by any target, sentient or non-sentient. If it's to be changed to HT, there must be an appropriate modifier. It's effectively a kind of disadvantageous variant of Based On HT. Pyrokinesis should have a limitation like "Nuisance Effect, Inanimate targets resist this attack with HT instead of Will 0, -10%" in its writeup.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

OK so how much are you charging for the ability to form gestalts? (Incidentally I deal with the problem by having the Malediction be resisted by HT, period.)

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Not all source-specific rules will be a beneficial or limiting to all the abilities in a power. It's possible that a source-specific rule might affect only one ability in a power. That doesn't change the fact that it's a source option, not an ability modifier, and thus you look at whether the source options are roughly balanced across the entire power, not just whether they're balanced on a single ability.

Consider the Additional Contact rule (GURPS Psionic Powers, p. 6). This is a beneficial option (it provides a bonus under certain circumstances) that only applies to ranged abilities that might involve a subject of some sort. But it doesn't help with the Seekersense ability, even though it's a ranged ability, because once you are able to make contact with the target there's no point in using the ability. It is neither a limitation on the Seekersense ability that it can't benefit from the Additional Contact rule, nor is it an enhancement on other abilities that they can.

The "HT instead of Will" rule is a limiting source option because it makes it harder to affect inanimate objects with psi. Psi already has more beneficial options than limiting options (as most sources do -- there are at least twice as many possible defined beneficial options as limiting options in GURPS Powers anyway so this happens), so this helps improve the balance of the source. The fact that the rule only applies to certain kind of psi abilities doesn't affect the cost of those abilities.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I like how no one actually noticed what Kromm said:
Which brings the issue, fully, back to "GM call."

Since Machines have 0 FP as a 0-point feature, and can neither have nor be affected by FP loss, it makes more sense to have inanimate objects have a 0 Will as a 0-point feature that they can resist Will-based affects with their HT provided it is possible for that affect to affect them at all. This way characters don't have to pay off a 200-point disadvantage if they want to use the template as a body (which, oddly enough, seems to be the route that THS took).

The only IQ-penalty, "inanimate object" templates I see are for software . . . not for any vehicles or robots . . ..

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I know. I simply wouldn't allow that build. If it's not mind-affecting, it can't go against Will (yes, I know that's not RAW. I don't care).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

It brings the issue to that some effects are inherently useless against some targets, e.g. Mind Affecting effects against IQ0 and Tox attacks against non-cellular targets and Classic Telepathy against Digital Minds. Those things are normally specific to interactions between effect categories and target categories.

Well, it's not RAW, but it's certainly a reasonable rule for some specific campaigns.

Yet Kromm said the IQ/Will/Per 0 drop makes sense for dumb machines and rocks (noting the difference between Homogenous and Unliving, though that is a tangent)

Perfectly reasonable ruling (in fact, a GM can always veto a build or require a power to be built differently). No argument there.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Since that quote has been pointed to recently, I suspect that Anthony may have meant something other than rulings made in the forums, though only he could say for sure.

I'd say the rock's IQ and Will are both N/A, but an idea has been floating in my head for a few days now, that maybe the "N/A" concept should just be equated with having a zero in the Attribute.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Attribute: N/A is absolutely a house rule (and personally one that I don't like at all), by RAW it doesn't exist.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I generally don't consider forum rulings to be more than 'house rules used by the author'.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Any/every post by Kromm and Rev PK as regards the rules should be considered rules-as-intended; they are the ultimate arbiters as to whether something is an official rule or if something is a house rule. You may ignore them if you wish, of course, (gods know I do sometimes!), but they are what they are.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Rules As Written almost always trump Rules As Intended, in my opinion.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Yes? I certainly wasn't trying to imply that I was giving anything other than my opinion on the way things should be.

I'd be interested in learning why you dislike the concept, although we might want to take it elsewhere.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

RAW doesn't really say what the will of an object is. However, it's hard to make sense of will for anything that lacks volition; for the conventional effects of will (excluding maledictions and other effects specifically swapped to Will), you can argue anywhere from zero (it can't choose to do anything) to infinite (it can't be talked into doing anything either). The easiest method is probably Will 0 plus Immunity to Effects vs Will.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I like the idea of inanimate objects resisting with hit points.. since hit points are suppose to represent mass and, at least in some genres, the heavier something this the more difficult it is to do things to it.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

As an interesting aside, The Free Will Theorem suggests that if we have free will, so do elementary particles.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

That's funny! I had considered moments before suggesting that in some genres, "animate" creatures don't have will either... hehehe

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Shifting from the specifics of Psionic Powers towards general rules territory, there seems to be room for more differentiation in the "Resisted by X" modifiers. For instance, "Resisted by higher of Will or HT" would clearly be a limitation (and would make it obvious what Will 0 entities should resist with) while "Resisted by lower of Will or HT" would be an enhancement. Any thoughts on how these should be priced?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Logical. I would prefer to use the powers accessibility table to determine the limitation value. Consider your character's usual effective skill, consider the average will and average ht of those subjects the character is likely to want to use the power on... then determine the possibility a subject would successfully resist accordingly..

So if the contest is between you IQ+tallent vs min(will & ht) or vs max(will & ht):

hmmm... ok, well i don't have the math today...

But consider that if in such a contest your IQ+Tallent = the min(will & ht) or max(will & ht) that 50% chance is a -20% limitation.

Most builds I've seen for maledictions or mind controllers have a much higher chance than this of beating the subjects resisting stat anyway, probably approaching th th 80 or 90 percent success rate... which is -5% to -10% limitation value.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Either/Or Limitations:
Resistible (HT or Will) (-5), -0.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (-4), -1%
Resistible (HT or Will) (-3), -2.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (-2), -5%
Resistible (HT or Will) (-1), -6.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (-0), -9% ... Either (Resistible (HT) (-0)) Or (Resistible (Will) (-0)) is -9%.
Resistible (HT or Will) (+1), -12.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+2), -16%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+3), -20.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+4), -25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+5), -30.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+6), -36%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+7), -42.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+8), -49%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+9), -56.25%
Resistible (HT or Will) (+10), -64%

... I would rule that the above is how to calculate "Resisted by the highest of HT or Will" and that "Resisted by the lowest of HT or Will" would require the addition of Selectivity, +10% to the advantage itself.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Well Powers has resisted by different attribute at +20% per possible attribute and requires you to pick before rolling.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Happen to have a page reference for that?

I'm seeing:
... which tells me not to do that, and so I'm confused.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I was referring to Based on (Different Attribute) p100.
Not sure why the other section says not to do that unless it figures your potion or nanobots cant figure out what to attack so suggests using the penalty instead of substitution.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

That makes no sense. Resistible by the Higher of HT or Will is always worse than Resistible by HT (or Will). Thus, the limitation value must be more, not less, than the original.

I'd suggest a flat -20% to the limitation value per attribute after the first.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Ah, right. I plead fatigue as the cause of my confusion. So, "Resistible by lowest of HT or Will" would use the either/or construct as above and "Resistible by highest of HT or Will" would use ... Hmm. I'd rule it uses:

Resistible (Highest of HT or Will) (-0), -39%
{

Resistible (-0), (-30%; Additional Attribute, +20%; Selectivity, +10%) -39%

}

Round values to taste, as always.

So you'd suggest that Resistible (Highest of HT or Will) (-0) be worth -50%?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Yep. It's a pretty major limitation, though not as bad as 'must resist both HT and Will', which would just double the price (making it -60%). -45%, or multiplication by 1.5, would also work for Resist Highest Of.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Compare with accessibility... the max limitation would be -40% for something that only works 6% or less of the time... or -50% if "only on supers" or equivelent where the power works only on a select group that is much fewer than 1% of the population...

I like accessibility's conservative values... of course I also like multiplicative modifiers so I'm quirky anyway. :)

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

If the argument "A negative effects that's peculiar to one psionic ability shouldn't be counted as a limitation, because every psionic ability has more positive options than negative ones." were valid, then Nuisance Effect limitations added on some abilities would be meaningless.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

A problem is that a "sentients resist with Will, but non-sentients with HT" doesn't equal "all targets resists with the higher of Will or HT". A Will 1, HT 10 target gets a resistance roll at 10, not 1.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Pursuant to that end, I started the thread Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?, where the idea of 'N/A'-level Attributes can be explored without being off-topic.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Re-write the Psionic Powers versions of the various psionic power modifiers to include the modifier values for all the various "free" enhancements and "free" limitations that are included in those power modifiers. Once we can see what you value those for, and we're done arguing for/against the values you picked, we'll then start discussing as to whether its' worth doing it that way rather than the official method of marking them as source-specific optional rules (enabled via campaign switches).

We'll give you a day or so to write them out so we can start opining on the values, 'kay?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Sorry, but note that I'm discussing Burning Attack and Malediction. Unmodified Burning Attack would affect cars, rocks, wooden boxes, etc. This is an example of "the attack in question would affect you". What Malediction enhancement on Innate Attack does is to replace conventional attack-defense rolls with a Quick Contest of Will vs. Will. It doesn't automatically give a better resistance to specific caterogies of potential targets. If there are some targets that has a better resistance, it should be either (a) a limitation on the ability on the attacker's side or (b) an advantage on the target's side.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Sorry, but that's not what I'm trying to. I'm discussing the point price of having an ability being resisted with HT (instead of Will) only by non-sentients, and I'm not interested in pricing any other "options" here.

Compare (based on the example in the box on p. 6 of Psionic Powers):

• Alice buys TK 20 [100].
• Bob buys TK 20 (Psychokinesis, -10%) [90].
• Charlie buys Burning Attack 5d (Malediction 1, +100%) [50].
• Dan buys Burning Attack 5d (Malediction 1, +100%; Psychokinesis, -10%) [48].

Borrowing the expression from the box:

Alice cannot exert extra effort, form a gestalt, use psi techniques, make a power defense, or get an additional contact bonus. Meanwhile, Bob has to buy a skill to use his TK, is subject to penalties for multiple feats and repeated attempts, and can cripple his abilities on a bad roll.

On the other hand, Charlie cannot exert extra effort, form a gestalt, use psi techniques, make a power defense, or get an additional contact bonus. Meanwhile, Dan has to buy a skill to use his Burning Attack, is subject to penalties for multiple feats and repeated attempts, and can cripple his abilities on a bad roll, and his ability suffers a greater chance of being resisted when cast on inanimate targets.

Obviously, Dan's Burning Attack and Bob's TK enjoy all the positive options and suffer all the negative options that accompany being a part of psionics, so they pay the equal price (which is free) for the fact that their abilities are psionic. However, only Dan's Burning Attack suffers a peculiar negative effect "non-sentients resist with HT, not Will 0", in addition to all the positive and negative options by belonging to a psi power. That's what we call "limitation" --"applying a limitation attaches additional restrictions to your ability" (p. B101).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

And you've been told that said limitation is packaged into the power modifier as a campaign switch by the author who wrote the worked example you're discussing. If you wish to discuss only that part of the power modifier within its' applicable context, then you need to unpack it.

Outside of that specific worked example written by that author, what you're discussing doesn't have that limitation and as you appear to dislike the idea I'm not sure why you'd be trying to replicate it for general use. We've already offered some methods of doing so if you did actually want to replicate it.

As such, I'm confused. What is your win-condition for this?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

You're absolutely right, which is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of that particular rule in regards to Psionic Powers. It doesn't make sense to me that a Will 7, HT 10 human would have a harder time resisting a Malediction than a Will 1, HT 10 slug. For the example of the Burning Innate Attack, you should have to overcome the structural inflexibility or resistance to change (ie, HT) whether or not the target can resist mentally as well. If HT is not a factor for affecting sentients, it shouldn't be a factor against non-sentients either.

Of course, if I were GMing the campaign I'd probably require either "Resisted by HT" or "Resisted by better of HT or Will" on attacks that could conceivably affect Will 0 targets (ie, cause a physical effect) and reserve Will-only resistance to effects that target the mind. For mind-affecting powers, it either works on non-sentient targets (in which case their very low Will is certainly a disadvantage for them) or it doesn't (in which case that Will 1 doesn't matter anyways). But that depends on the power itself, not whether it's resisted by Will.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

A Will 1 slug is still sentient - it would resist with its Will 1, not its HT.

It's only things with IQ/Will 0 that are non-sentient and thus resist with HT.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Ah, you're right. I was mixing up Sentience and Sapience (B15). Anyways, replace my examples of a Will 1 slug with a Will 0 rock. And that actually highlights it much more starkly, as now you can compare the slug (almost certain to fail all resistance rolls) to the rock (resists with HT instead, for a much higher rate of success).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I'm having trouble following this... Why is that a problem, when the rule in question is explicitly ignorable to fit the GM's vision?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

We're talking about the Psionic Powers rules, which makes this option (that targets lacking Will resist with HT instead) the default for Psi. So the assumption is that it's not ignorable, or at least not intended to be (but of course a GM can do as they like.) I'm considering other options, such as a limitation that lets the target resist with the better of Will or HT (on the justification that the power causes a physical effect, but it can be interfered with mentally as well.) This avoids cases where, in the Psi Powers rule, you'd have a target with, say, a -180 cp disadvantage (IQ 1) suffer more than a target with a -200 cp disadvantage (IQ 0). That it also gives an advantage to a target with higher HT than Will is, I think, a beneficial side effect.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

'Object' is more than a -200 cp disadvantage. It's "cannot take mental actions". Given that this isn't priced into IQ 0, you might as well give it some sort of advantage to compensate.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

To clarify, I'm not arguing that source-specific options (extra efforts, gestalts, required psi skills, etc.) should be priced on a piece-by-piece basis. Their benefits and drawbacks are supposed to be more-or-less equal and balanced against each other to zero-cost. That's no problem.

My argument is simple. Having a Malediction attack that's resisted with Will by sentients but with HT by non-sentients (Dan in the example above) is more disadvantageous than having a Malediction attack that's resisted with Will by any target (Charlie in the example above). This disadvantageous effect is, despite the author's statement, not packaged into the set of the positive/negative options on p. 6 that applies to all psionic abilities equally. Compare them with Alice and Bob in the example above: obviously, Dan's Burning Attack suffers one more drawback that Bob's TK doesn't suffer.

Therefore, there must be either (a) a limitation representing this drawback imposed specifically on Malediction-enhanced Innate Attack, or (b) additional, unwritten counterbalancing benefits to justify the combination as a zero-cost feature. If (a) is the case, then what's to be found is a percentage value for the limitation "Nuisance Effect, Inanimate targets resist this attack with HT instead of Will 0". If (b), then the question becomes what are the counterbalancing benefits.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Doesn't that match both the "theory" of parapsychology and fiction depictions of pyrokinetics? It seems to me that people and animals are believed to "spontaneously combust"; rarely is a rock described to have done so. If pyrokinetics do burn inanimate objects they are typically Combustible ones with low HP and HT (wood-frame homes, for example).

How do you know that extra effort, gestalts, required psi skills all "add up" to exactly zero? Why can't Maledictions are resisted by HT for non-sapients be part of that tally?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I've usually heard spontaneous combustion described as a metabolic effect, which the rock would be immune to anyways. Pyrokinesis is typically described as "vibrating matter on the atomic level", which would cause the same amount of heat (Burning damage) to a rock, a wooden house, or a human; the wooden house is more prone to catch fire, though that's because of the interaction of Fragile (Combustible) and Burning damage, not because of its HP or HT compared to a rock or person. The rock could still take Burning damage, but would never catch fire, instead glowing red-hot (possibly igniting other flammable objects nearby) and eventually shattering into searing shrapnel. The human's clothing or skin could catch fire, or the heat could build up internally until the entire body ignites at once (ie, the target takes a lethal amount of internal Burning damage).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Not by the crystal-twinkies and Peter Veckmen of the world it isn't. Spontaneous human combustion is the result of parapyschological forces and psychic energies.
Can you think of an example of pyrokinesis shown to ignite rocks? I can't. In Firestarter it was people and wooden houses (which really might have caught on fire from the burning people), the same deal in Hellboy (both in the comic and the films).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The only even vaguely realistic reason for spontaneous human combustion I've heard is the wick effect and sleeping/dead people dropping cigarettes.
But fire investigation is a very difficult and counter-intuitive science only recently getting accurate. My childhood house fire remains were very weird looking.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I don't see any reason to assume that pyrokinesis is resisted by IQ in the first place, or that it's even a malediction; in-genre it either produces flame blasts that are perfectly conventional Burning attacks, or it's internal heating that's only resisted by psi powers, superscience, or being something that isn't bothered by being heated up; it's basically Cosmic (Ignores External DR), plus typically a very high accuracy.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The Firestarter movie has the little girl setting a stack of bricks on fire, setting a bathtub of water on fire and mentally throwing fireballs near the end. I've not read the book, so I can't compare between the two.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Yeah and it's been awhile since I've read the book, so it's possibly I'm misremembering. OTOH those appear to be more conventional burning attacks (without Malediction). I think Burning Attack (Malediction, blah) is meant to model the sorts of things that parapyschologists have suggested cause spontaneous combustion rather than the ability to fling fireballs or burn water.

EDIT: In fact GURPS Psionic Powers p 57 specifically calls this part of the ability "Spontaneous Combustion"!

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Ah. Well, I'd never heard that particular explanation. Though spontaneous human combustion is almost certainly fiction, it has been said to occur in the real world, and various scientists have proposed real-world explanations for how it could conceivably happen. None of the (barely) plausible explanations involved psychic phenomenon, of course.

It takes a lot of heat to actually shatter a rock. For low-powered psis, it may simply be impossible to heat them to that level. Houses and people are targeted because they're more flammable. But then, if pyrokinesis depends on the psychic emanations of the target in question (is that what you are suggesting?) then targets lacking such emanations should be immune. This doesn't seem to be the model that Psionic Powers uses, however.

Alternately, if targets with minds are easier to affect than targets without minds, but non-willed targets can still be affected, it could be something along the lines of Resisted by HT-0 / Resisted by HT-5 (Resisted by Will). Basically, the target always gets an HT roll, but if it's got a Will, and you overcome it, you get a bonus against its HT.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Hmm... now that I think about it more, this puts me in mind of a Pyrokinesis power that does no damage by itself (ie, has No Wounding) but can be used to ignite flammable objects. Give it the Incendiary enhancement if it can ignite anything (such as bricks or water). A 1d Pyrokinesis attack could thus set fire to Flammable objects (oil or kindling) automatically, Resistant (seasoned wood or clothing) on an average roll, Highly Resistant (green wood or flesh) after 10 seconds on a roll of 16-, and everything else (bricks, metal, etc) after 10 seconds on a 6-. Lower-powered Psi would lack the Incendiary enhancement, and thus drop all those ignition rates by one step, with no chance of igniting Nonflammable objects. I think this is actually a pretty good fit for certain models of Pyrokinesis, where the psi can't directly create fire, but only set fire to appropriate fuel.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Don't you find the second paragraph of the inset on p12 to indicate otherwise, or do you suppose that it is referring to something besides the general rule? No snark intended, just honest curiosity.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

By definition. Psionic power modifiers are priced at -10% (or -0% for Antipsi), and the rules state that a power modifier can have beneficial and limiting options that apply to a given power/source, without changing the PM's percentage value: see pp. 174-178 of Powers. I don't know how to calculate the zero percent for them, and that's not my problem.

Because, unlike extra effort, gestalts, required psi skills, etc., limiting only Malediction-enhanced Innate Attacks and doing nothing to the rest of the power is not an option given to power/source. That's exactly what we call limitation. If the argument "With Psychokinesis power modifier, 'Malediction-enhanced IA is resisted with HT by non-sentients' is a zero-cost part of the PM and not limitation." were valid, then we would lose any logical reason to reject absurd statement like:

• "With ESP power modifier, 'Clairsentience suffers darkness penalty' is a zero-cost part of the PM and not limitation."
• "With Psychic Healing power modifier, 'Unaging requires success rolls to stop aging' is a zero-cost part of the PM and not limitation."
• "With Telepathy power modifier, 'Empathy cannot tell the target's emotion unless the user wins a Quick Contest vs. the target's Will' is a zero-cost part of the PM and not limitation."

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The second half of the first paragraph is describing a particular circumstance (the Psi makes his roll by a MoS of 3+Target SM) in which this particular rule (inanimate objects resist with HT) can be waived. The second paragraph is referring to that option, saying that the HT roll is ignored for the sake of speed and simplicity, but that if there's significant tension involved (or if the object is a Gadget) then it should always get a HT roll.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

Clearly some Source-Specific rules can apply to only some abilities of a Power. In the case of Psionics only Telepaths can form gestalts at range, does that mean that non-telepaths have a limitation "Cannot form gestalts at range"?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

The rules for gestalts on pp. 9-11 of Psionic Powers is a fine-tuned version of the Combining Powers section on pp. 170-172 of Powers. Combining Powers requires either making physical contact to other psis or establishing a real-time mental link to other psis via Mind Reading advantage or Telesend advantage. Under Psionic Powers, these two advantages are both in the dominion of Telepathy power, and this is why only telepaths can use Combining Powers ("form gestalts") at range.

The fact that only telepaths can form ranged gestalts is not a limitation, but is a natural consequence of the fact that the game designer restricts Mind Reading and Telesend advantages to Telepathy power (for the sake of niche protection). This is just a faithful application of the Powers rules. It doesn't unequally deprives non-Telepathy powers of their utility, so there's no room for a "limitation" such as "Cannot form gestalts at range (= Cannot buy Mind Reading or Telesend)".

If the argument "'Cannot buy Mind Reading or Telesend' should be a limitation for any non-Telepathy powers" were valid, then absurd statements like "'Cannot buy Telekinesis' should be a limitation for any non-Psychokinesis powers", "'Cannot buy Warp' should be a limitation for any non-Teleportation powers" would be equally valid, but no one including you and me would support them.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I can see how just reading the text leads to that. What about the new paragraph? That implies a separate concept, which is what suggests the application to the general rule. That could be an editorial misplacement, I suppose. Maybe we should just ask Rev the intent of those lines *lightbulb*

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I found a way to ignore the matter.

Any limitation reduces the utility of advantage in some way, but not all limitations are priced at greater than -0%. E.g., being able to fly only for 11 minutes per day (Flight with Limited Use, 11 uses) is obviously less advantageous than being able to fly indefinitely, but the rules are quite explicit that Limited Use of more than 10 uses/day is "not a significant limitation" (p. B102). (Whether this is a reasonable pricing or not is another matter.)

With Psychokinesis power modifier, Malediction-enhanced Burning Attack suffers a greater chance of being resisted by non-sentients -- it's certainly less advantageous than an ordinary Malediction which forces inanimate targets to resist with Will 0. Thus, Pyrokinesis has an obvious limitation "Nuisance Effect, Inanimate targets resist this attack with HT instead of Will 0", but the designer somehow concluded that this is a small limitation worth only -0%, and forgot to add this limitation in the ability writeup.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

So I did ask, and...
Another misconception of mine corrected. Boffo! :)

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I'd like to point out that machines have the equivalent of that for their FP (although I suppose that's technically a secondary characteristic).

Re: [Psionic Powers] Do inanimate targets resist Malediction with HT or Will?
 

I'm aware of that, and I agree that the version of FP N/A in the Machine Metrait is a feature. I don't agree that IQ 0 is a feature, for example. I tried to explain my reasoning in the other thread.