[HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

From the post on Machine Pistols vs SMG, so as not to derail the subject there:

This is interesting, because I was contemplating adding some houserule for automatic weapons as I noticed that there are maybe only 3 or 4 weapons in all the High-Tech books that actually have a ! in their RoF, and none in Ultra-Tech. I found it weird that anyone could decide the exact number of rounds fire each time they used a full automatic weapon.

Do I understand correctly that you're saying that adding the effects of RoF #! to all full automatic weapons is a realistic/plausible ruling? That would make sense to me.

Even that, however, wouldn't complete address my concern. It still wouldn't stop someone from, for example, firing exactly 8 rounds (without some sort of burst limiter).

My houserule would be that, each time you fire on full auto, you roll 1d. The results modified the number of rounds actually fired compared to what you hoped to fire: 1 = -20%; 2 = -10%; 3-4 = exact number; 5 = +10%; 6 = +20%. There's always a minimum of 1 and maximum of weapon's RoF in a given turn. You don't have to roll if you fire the weapon's maximum RoF.

Is such a ruling realistic? Should skill have an impact of this?


PS: I realize this is just another roll to add in combat, which adds a layer of complexity, but I don't mind. In fact, I've automated this calculation into my MapTools anyway, so it's no extra trouble for me at all.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

I didn't say so (because I was at work and on my phone), but I really, really liked the suggestion in the "original thread" of designating any selective-fire weapon without a burst-limiting option as RoF 3/N! instead of RoF N. Consider that stolen for my next HT game.

As far as the "rate control" issue where players can say "I fire exactly eight shots with my RoF 14! submachine gun," that's another issue I've been looking at. I haven't looked at it long enough and hard enough to actually put together a complete house rule, but this is the general ballpark of my idea:

When a character is firing in full-automatic mode (no burst-limiter), they declare how many rounds they're attempting to fire. The character then makes a Will-based Guns roll, with a penalty equal to double the RoF bonus of their declared fire volume—so if a character is trying to fire 8 rounds (RoF to-hit bonus of +1), they make a Will-based Guns-2 roll (if the character is unfamiliar with the weapon, they take an additional -2 penalty. Further penalties may apply at GM discretion for various possible sources of penalization, such as Bad Temper, Berserk, Shock, even Cowardice, whatever the GM feels is appropriate).

On a success, they fire the correct number of rounds. On a failure, they fire either too many or too few rounds (determine randomly) based on some function of margin of failure. I like the 10% increments you suggest in your d6-based proposal, so maybe we'll go with that. Round any resulting fractions away from the desired number of shots. The character will never fire less than [the greater of 50% of the declared shots or the minimum RoF for the weapon in automatic mode], or more than the number of rounds in the magazine.

Take note: If the character fails hard enough, they may end up continuing to fire over more than one round. Think of it like a panic attack. =p However, it also makes it more risky to fire at full RoF, since not only do you take a greater penalty the higher the RoF goes, but you are also toeing the line of burning into your next turn.

-------------------------------

To the surprise of no one who has every known anything about my attempts to house rule anything, this is naturally a more complicated solution than is necessarily needed. But I like it anyway, because it rewards more experienced soldiers (not necessarily better shooters, since it is a Will-based roll) and makes amateurs more likely to "lose it" in a fire-fight.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

If you play with a game aid that allows automating these rolls (you mentioned MapTools), then having rolls that would otherwise slow down play is no issue.

Will isn't the right base, though. Firing a controlled number of rounds is a straight-up DX-base, I'd say. Part of the shooting skill.

You'd want to first roll for this sort of trigger control to determine how close you are to your intent of rounds fired. Then you apply this RoF to your hit roll.

That would be Not Awesome if you were playing a FTF game, perhaps, but as part of a computer-aided "Hit the Attack Button" macro, might be kinda fun.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

It's only a straight-up DX-based roll if you assume (and maybe you do) (and maybe GURPS does, now that I think about it) that a conditioned mind is not required in order to know when to stop / how to control your adrenaline in combat, or that someone who is an amateur shooter with high natural agility would be just as good at hitting the "right spot," trigger control-wise, as a shooter with average natural talent but a great deal of experience with such things.

I don't have that assumption, although I don't rigidly adhere to the assumption my above house rule makes, either—it's just the one I chose to operate under. That said, in the spirit of game balance, I'm also inherently disinclined to make the roll keyed to an ability that every PC shooter is going to buy up anyway. But I'm open to other options.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

An unconditioned mind going spray-and-pray is probably the result of a failed fright check, or some similar effect. If you require Will rolls for a trained shooter to control automatic fire in "ordinary" combat situations, logically you should require Will rolls to do almost anything in combat.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

Again, as a non-gunner, I notice that High Tech p. 82, 83 explains what a RoF like 8 can mean in real terms. Note that most actual machine guns have a ! RoF, and that switching between fully automatic and semi-automatic usually requires a Ready manoeuvre.

In a gritty game where I enforced this, I would use the minimum burst length on p. B408 on all fully automatic fire, and the limited burst rules for all limited bursts. I think that the rule in the Basic Set is designed to abstract away the difference between semi-automatic, limited bursts, and fully automatic mode.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

Consistently firing bursts of a particular length is not difficult. I'm no expert gunner, but I can easily and reliably fire 2-3 round bursts with the FN Minimi (M240) and 5 round bursts with the M60 or Mag58 (FN MAG).

Give some half-decent gunners an afternoon on the range (ie, familiarity), and they should be able to reliably fire 20 round bursts in a sustained fire role. Variance shouldn't be more than 10%, probably less.

Switching from exactly 3 to 6 to 12 to 8 is a different story, but I honestly don't think the added effort to account for variance is worth the effort, especially when you consider that a gunner with familiarity should be able to choose the burst length, even if he doesn't consciously count the rounds as he does so. Since the game doesn't rate automatic fire in "time of burst", it is reasonable to allow the player to pick the number of rounds instead.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

Many do not, having various gimmicks like a short pull or a different section of the trigger for single shots. In effect, you can select to fire full or semi-automatic as a free action. Things like that would in most cases use the ordinary rules allowing any number of shots, though if the full RoF is particularly high, it would still be realistic to treat it as 3/n!, but not requiring a Ready to select.

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

Isn't that logically equivalent to what I said? The OP thought that only a few weapons in High Tech have a ! RoF, but about 2/3 the Gunner (MG) and Guns (LMG) weapons are restricted to fully automatic fire. Those pages of HT discuss whether changing between semi-automatic, limited bursts, and fully automatic requires a manoeuvre or not

Re: [HT] Full-Auto weapons and RoF #!
 

Well, I suppose "switching between fully automatic and semi-automatic usually requires a Ready manoeuvre" coexists with "[with many]...you can select to fire full or semi-automatic as a free action." Though perhaps I should have said "some" rather than "many." A selector switch (which would normally require a Ready maneuver) is pretty standard on selective fire weapons, but it's not the only method.

The MG 34 has a double crescent trigger. Pull on the top for single fire, or the bottom for automatic fire.

The Steyr AUG family has a weighted trigger. A light pull for a single shot, a hard pull for automatic (whether this is actually carried over to the LSW and LMG, or is exclusive to the standard service rifles, I don't know).

Neither of those schemes would not require a maneuver to select between RoF 3 and RoF N!