Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

Thieves encountering Lawyers may discard two 'Treasures' to draw two new ones. Are Treasure cards in your hand considered to be Treasure for the purposes of this rule or is it like Items and they must be already in play to be discarded? On that point, are Items still Treasure once they are in play?

It also says to draw these Treasures face down. It doesn't say it breaks the unbreakable rule that rewards are only gained at the end of combat, so I assume you have to wait until then to draw this Treasure, but if you win and there is a helper in the combat, how do you draw those Treasures?

The rule that you draw Treasure face-up when you have a helper isn't unbreakable and cards override rules, so those treasures wouldn't be drawn face up like the other spoils of the combat. Are they drawn face-down and distributed with the other face-up cards as per the agreement with only the recipient discovering what they are after he takes them, or do they go to the Thief that actually discarded the Treasures?

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

I have always ruled that any Treasure card, whether it be an Item the Thief had in play (not including one-shot Items the Thief actually played for the combat; for that circumstance, let's assume that Lawyer was added after the one-shot was played) or a card in the Thief's hand, may be discarded to use this effect.

This is not a reward, but a Monster effect. The Thief may discard his Treasure cards and draw new ones while in combat.

As I said above, the Thief discards his cards and draws the new cards immediately. Once the Thief has accomplished this, Lawyer is discarded.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

Ah, that solves the problem nicely, thanks.

Am I correct in reasoning that any monster that tells you to 'draw' treasures when automatically defeating it should be treated as an effect rather than a reward and nothing else? From my search, the only such monsters I can find in the Fantasy sets are Lawyers and Pack Rat. The FAQ implies that the treasure the Amazon gives females is a combat reward that the main combatant draws, so I guess that 'give' isn't enough on its own.

Although the Obtuse Angel is a tricky case. It gives you a 'face-up' treasure if you are wearing the Halo. It doesn't use the keyword 'draw' but it does tell you that the treasure it gives is face up. Is this one an effect or reward?

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

From the Contradictions section of the rules: it is a special rule added by a card.

No need to use the terms effect or reward. You follow the special rule if you are subject to it. You are a thief and
you are facing the Lawyers.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

It is actually quite important to define the difference. The FAQ also has this question:
Given that the Stoned Golem keeps its treasure when you ignore it, the parenthesised statement discussing Treasures going to the main fighter can only be referring to the Amazon. The Amazon gives a female a Treasure in her card text, but we must infer from the FAQ that this card text is not an effect, but a reward that becomes part of the spoils only if the fighter/s win.

The Pack Rat also gives you a Treasure according to its card text, but it goes on to say that you take that treasure by drawing two cards and discarding one. This almost certainly has to be treated like Lawyers and should be immediate too, but it uses the same text of giving as the Amazon. Obtuse Angel is even trickier as he gives you a face up Treasure in his text. Do we treat this one like the Amazon or like Lawyers? I honestly can't decide either way.

I am asking how we determine the difference between cards like Lawyers, Pack Rat, Obtuse Angel and the Amazon to work out whether to take your treasure immediately or wait until you have won the combat.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

To me, the difference is simple - the Treasure that the Amazon "gives" you is part and parcel of the combat. You get the treasure, but you don't fight the monster. No cost to you.

For the Lawyer, you're actually paying something - you're trading two known treasures for two unknown treasures. This is much more like a power than it is gathering your usual rewards for combat. Note: It doesn't say "the Lawyer gives you two Treasures in exchange for two Items."

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

What about the Pack Rat and Obtuse Angel? Both of them 'give' you a Treasure as well, just like with Amazon, but they should arguably be immediate rather than delayed.

If you have no Items in play, the Pack Rat will optionally 'give you one' by allowing you to draw two face up treasures and discarding one instead of fighting you. The Obtuse Angel facing a Halo-wearing munchkin 'gives you a face-up Treasure', even if you are fighting alone where your treasure draws at the end of combat would be face-down.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

I haven't seen the Obtuse Angel card, so I can't comment on it.

For the Pack Rat, I would say that too is a power and not a normal Treasure draw - you are pulling two Treasure cards and discarding one.

Of course, this is all conjecture until MM or AH weigh in.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

Yeah, I agree with your thoughts on all those cards.

For the interest of simplifying the above questions, I thought I'd make a summary table of all the monsters I can find that mention donating Treasures somehow in the card text when they are defeated. This is in the form of:

Amazon - gives a Treasure - reward
Lawyers - discard two Treasures and draw new ones - effect
Wannabe Vampire - chase away and take all his Treasure - reward
Piñata - each party member draws a face-up Treasure - effect??? (overruled by MunchkinMan below to be a reward)
Plague Rats - leave their Treasure behind - reward
Fowl Fiend - leaves two Treasures - reward
Pack Rat - gives you an Item. Draw two Treasures and choose one. - effect
Owl Bare - gives you three Treasures without fighting - reward
Newt - Wizard claims their Treasure - reward
Obtuse Angel - gives you a face-up Treasure - reward??? (MunchkinMan agrees with this one)

So it seems to come down to just Obtuse Angel and Piñata which are unclear on whether to treat them as effects or rewards.

Re: Discarding Treasures with Lawyers
 

Piñata is quite clear that one must defeat it to get the Treasure for the entire party. That makes it a reward, plain and simple.

As for Obtuse Angel, that's an instant defeat condition. Also a reward.