Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Ok, from the other thread I figured I would post this so as not to derail it further.
I think Cartoons are a tough one to build but that it could be done with some work.
How though?
I think a Toon metatrait is a good starting point.
Also you have to make some setting assumptions.
So to start with I am thinking this based on classic toon (as I recall it) and that means some really old cartoons, not animae.

Meta Trait: Toon
Unkillable 2, Extreme Regeneration only out of combat (or between scenes).


Common Powers:
Luck, Serendipity, Super Luck, Unluckiness.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

They're also all contortionists.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I think that for a Toon setting, you'll want to apply and/or invent some setting options. Liberal use of such things as flesh wounds will go a long way to address the resilience that toons demonstrate: it's not that they never get hurt badly; it's more like the injuries (and sometimes the deaths) never stick.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Yeah I thought about Elastic skin and Flexibility but its not really always voluntary.
I also thought about Supernatural durability but its not really a good fit for most.
Yeah Flesh Wounds is a good option. I am sure there are more and the metatrait was just a start. And probably not a complete one either.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I assume we're talking Tex Avery/Warner Bros toons?

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Setting options, yes. But would that solve the problem of a mixed toon / real world setting such as Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, where toons and "real" people mix it up together in the same world?

I suppose you could define those setting options as options only applicable to those with the Toon Meta-Trait, or possibly as options that get included as Extra Option perks in that meta-trait but that no one gets by default (this could also differentiate some "throw away" toon characters from things like toon PCs or important toon NPCs).

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Unless you're mixing toons and norms in the game, I don't see much reason for a meta-trait at all: just work up a "slapstick combat system" where you have lots of pain and afflictions but little in the way of lasting injuries (with the occasional exception; I recall a Roadrunner cartoon where, unlike most, the Coyote's injuries accumulated throughout the course of the short), and where the success of the attack has more to do with how satisfying it would be to see the target suffer rather than on how skilled the combatants are. This has the additional advantage of letting you add humorous injuries to otherwise-serious games, such as the hyper dimensional mallet that has a disturbing tendency to crop up in anime series.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I believe you could get some tips for a silly combat system from GURPS Goblins as well (3rd Ed, but very fun).

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Likewise with GURPS IOU (I never did figure out what that darn "O" stands for).

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I think it also comes down to WHICH cartoons. Disney toons are much less resilient then WB toons. The Hanna-Barbara toons, while every bit as classic, are only about a resilient as any comedy protagonists would be. Popeye gets a lot of weird flailing about but things as mundane as bricks and punches are a serious threat to all individuals within (unless they've eaten there spinach). Wile-E-Coyote on the other hand seems to be completely unkillable. Tom of Tom & Jerry seems unkillable, but I am not sure if the same invulnerability extends to Jerry who we never see seriously hurt. Potentially it's a situation of 'villainous verisimilitude'- The bad guy is invincible because we want to show bad things happening to the bad guy.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Somewhere I have the game Toon but I cannot find it now. If you can get any edition it might make a good guideline for running a GURPS Toon game. Basically, IIRC, the skill set should be extremely limited and each skill should be close to a wildcard skill, if not a wildcard skill. Thus you would never have Throw Weapon, merely Throw Something; you wouldn't have Drive Car but Drive Anything; Guns! would also cover artillery perhaps. Gadgets should be common. The Laws of Physics must take second place to the story line and the gags. (Thus gravity never works until you notice that you are walking on air, etc.) Explosions do no damage unless required by the plot, and never hurt any character - merely put soot on their face or whatever. Everything is right next door unless it is funnier to have it someplace else.
The game Toon had a provision where if your character was in a fight with anything, another character or a car or whatever, and you ran out of hit points then your character "fell down" and was out of the game for a set period of time in RL. It was three minutes I think.
If you can pull off the silliness it should be a blast. Looney Toons, Woodie Woodpecker, Deputy Dawg, Huckleberry Hound, Droopy, all of the classics and even some of the more modern stuff such as Dexter's Lab, can be an inspireation. Where are you at? Maybe I can join in?

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I think the metatrait helps bundle some of the advantages together for simplicity. So it has value even if not in a setting where your mixing normals and toons.
OK what about the various Toon worlds and such do we want to try to implement and can we separate them into various traits and rules?
Roadrunner and Wylie Coyote
Tom and Jerry
Daffy Duck
Darkwing Duck
Bugs Bunny

I dont think Scooby Doo really fits.
Animae is a whole different thing and has several types as well.
What are some of the core features and which are just optional?

Not dying is core. Able to take a licking and come right back.
Movement also pretty common.
Flesh Wounds are a good way to handle Stars vs. Extras.
Success also.
Odd skills.. Wildcard skills and the rules on them from MH could be attractive.
That can cover a lot of Schticks right there.
Wish I had a copy of Toon, or Goblins as was suggested but those long gone.

Edit: Ninjaed on the Wild Card :)

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Don't forget Itchy & Scratchy!

And on Family Guy, sometimes the main characters get their faces torn off (at least one time Peter did this to Chris in a cut-away), or get shot in the head (at least one time, Peter to Meg), or even decapitated or have their heads explode. Of course, a lot of that happens in the cut-away gags. Also, non-main characters can die and don't seem especially resilient. But then you have guys like recurring cameo character James Woods that can even come back from the dead using super-science that sucks the life force out of young people.

On Futurama, it can take minutes to die from decapitation, all the while the head can talk and everything, even jump and attack, as per IT:Independent Body Parts, which many toons seem to have.

And for some of these settings (actually, many toons), you basically have to build them as nigh-sociopaths... possibly with Callous, Bloodlust, Bad Temper, etc. Toons generally get written as highly emotionally reactive yet mostly self-absorbed creatures with little concern for long-term consequences, which, if you think about it, makes complete sense for creatures that for all intents and purposes can't die or get permanently harmed.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

The thread is just getting started. I am not planning on a game just an exercise. And I have no intention of trying to write this up for publication. I have other things I might try again that are more important to me.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

TOON was very much a WB game from everything I've seen of it.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

This is part of why I'm suggesting a slapstick combat system: by applying it judiciously, you could end up handling any or all of the above.

I'm not so sure about that. I recall at least on short featuring a guy who was so desperate to get into a vaudeville show that he mixed up a bunch of explosive chemicals, drank them, and swallowed a match. After the resulting explosion, the crowd went wild and the host asked for a repeat performance, to which the performer's ghost said that the only problem with the trick is that you can only do it once.

The core ability of the Toon is the ability to ignore the limitations imposed by reality if it's funny.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I'd also suggest implementing some sort of "comedy point" currency that can be earned by injecting humor into the game (or by playing the straight-man for someone else's humor) and can be used to let you ignore rules that would get in the way of being funny (such as the one that says that being blasted by a cannon, falling a thousand feet off a cliff, and having a house-sized boulder land on top of you will kill you; but also things like ending up somewhere where you have no business being).

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Yeah a list of combat options is needed.

Sure we seen a few of those but I think that could be handled with Unkillable 3 and letting him speak as a ghost.

Yeah though not reliabily and its vulnerable to plot.
Speaking of which..
PM: Toon -10%
Your powers stop working whenever the plot calls for it or when it would just be funny.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Good one also. Daredevil but for Funny instead of dangerous?
Serendipity also with a funny enhancement.
In fact maybe we should have a Funny Enhancement for powers that is kind of like Glamour or Cosmic. It often has no real measurable effect, it just looks cool.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Maybe this could work using the same mechanic as the modified Destiny advantage from MH, but Destiny for funniness / silliness rather than something heroic... :-)

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Clean and Simple.
I am liking this thread, its fun.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

On the slapstick combat, remember that a bananna cream pie does as much damage as a 105mm howitzer - that is, whatever is funny.
Yes, Toon was heavily WB, in fact it proably could have been titled WB Cartoon Game System without serious problems, except maybe WB wanting a piece of the cash flow.
I like the idea of Cartoon Points, or Funny Points, or Whatever Points enabling the character to act outside of the rules. One of the primary assumption of cartoons, the silly kind especially, is that reality is optional.
I still want to play.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

For damage I think Affliction might be the main attack.
It makes the damage more even without having to worry about HP and also allows for some interesting effects.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

In particular, the "Other Uses for Points" box on page 31 works quite nicely as a baseline list of the sorts of things that comedy points should be able to do.

That said, that list only covers one side of it: namely, how comedy points can be spent. IMHO, a bit more needs to be done on the "how they are earned" side of things. The core premise should be that if you hinder yourself in some way in the name of being funny, you should be rewarded for it. A very common example of this is that inflicting real, lasting injuries on your opponent isn't funny; so nerfing your own attack (in effect, declaring that it will automatically be a Flesh Wound) can net you a comedy point — assuming that the attack is done for humor, of course. And Wile E. Coyote is the master of Selling Successes: downgrading a success to a failure or critical failure because it's funnier if the attempt to propel a boulder through the air instead deposits it on his head. (Of course, he then spends a comedy point to turn the crushing impact into a flesh wound, because it wouldn't be funny if he was actually killed by it.)

One other thing to note: reducing an injury to a Flesh Wound should not mitigate the immediate effects of the damage. The toon should still be in pain, knocked down/sent flying, etc. based on the damage taken prior to turning it into a flesh wound.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

What kind of cartoons have you been watching?

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Right now I'm renting the Loony Toons series Psychotime, but it has been said that I have a weird sense of humor. I resent the accusation that I have a sense of humor. But if I did, it would be weird. Then again,

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

What era? Clampett? Jones? The move to TV? Pre-Clampett?

Hell, maybe you're going as far as Bosco the Talk-Ink Kid.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

The idea for the classic WB Cartoon is "Everything could happen as long as it's funny" think something like a Cosmic God-like Power:
Toon Gag! (physical only; accessibility: as long as it's funny)

Obviouly it should have an illogical point cost but since is an advantage for all the characters of the setting this is not important.

On the other hand, a more worked toon meta-trait for a "Who framed Roger Rabbit" like setting could be a real challenge.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

I've thought for a while (like since the late 80s) that running a game based on Who Censored Roger Rabbit (the original novel) would be pretty interesting, but I always thought you could use Toon rules for the toons and GURPS for the rest of the world. You just need rules to figure out how they interact.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Sir Pudding, do you know where I could buy a copy of Who Censored Roger Rabbit? I've done web searches and come up only with the movie and I want the book - I have the movie and like it, but I want the book as well.

EDIT: I found and read the book. The movie is not very similar but both are enjoyable

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Bookfinder.com, to be exact http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?au...en&st=xl&ac=qr

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Amazon has the ebook for $1.99. Fair warning: except for the basic character concepts the film and the book are radically different. The novel is much more noir, and the toons are a different sort of entity than they are in the film. This is actually why I think the mileu of the novel is more suited to gaming, it has a much more nuanced relationship between toons and mankind, that goes back to prehistory.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Or just Google shopping. Dead-tree versions are kinda pricey, though.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

KINDA pricey!? I couldn't see a dead tree version for under $100! I was planning on getting an e-book reader and if Amazon has a digital version for about $2 then I'll wait until then.
I found my old copy of TOON and enjoyed reading it. I can see where cartoons can bend the GURPS system. GURPS is very skill oriented (which I like) and the TOON system is very wildcard. And, as I mentioned, I am renting the Looney Toons Golden Collection and I can see where wildcard skills would be needed to replicate the cartoons. I have a few Woody Woodpecker and other cartoons and they are similar.
I wonder if it would be fun to play a cartoon character who knows that he is a cartoon character and ignores the 4th wall?

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

[Elmer has been badly injured, and Bugs is panicking]
Bugs: [looks out at audience] Is there a doctor in the house?!?
[MST3K-style silhouette of a doctor stands up]
Doctor: I'm a doctor!
Bugs: [relaxes] Eh, what's up, Doc?
[curtains close, and cartoon ends]

There's definitely precedent for fourth-wall mischief. Personally, I'd handle it by having the players come up with distinct voices for their toons (the operative word being "distinct", as opposed to "amusing"; though the latter is certainly worth doing too) so that everyone can tell instantly whether the player is talking or if he's channeling his toon. Then let the toons be every bit as aware of what's going on around the gaming table as the players are of what's happening in the toon world: the toons are first and foremost concerned with what's happening in their world; but if they overhear a comment by another player, they can respond to it.

I wouldn't do this in every toon game, or even for every toon in a given game; but if done in moderation, it could work.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

It might be fun to run a session where the characters can talk to the other players and give suggestions. Of course, the group would have to be able to withstand the character insults and wisecracks without getting hurt feelings and breaking up.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

If you want the softcover, and you can settle for used, I see a bunch of 'em on Amazon's site for less than $30... to me, that's still terribly pricey, though.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Kindle e-book reader software for Windows, Mac, iOS and Android is free for the downloading.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Thanks Johndallman, I had never noticed that before.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Getting back to this and partly reinspired by a few more threads.
Aside form various advantages and such what I am curious abotu are what option rules or dials would people add ot various Toon type games and how would we organize them?
In other words what label and how do you identify Snow White vs. Bugs Bunny vs. Tom and Jerry?
Would you even call Snow White a Toon? I doubt it though The little mermaid maybe more so.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

Slight modification to the question: how would Disney Afternoon characters (Gummi Bears, Duck Tales, Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers, Tale Spin, Darkwing Duck, Bonkers, Quack Pack, Gargoyles) be addressed?

In general, I'd put most of them in a single category, what I'd call the "default toon". The exceptions would be Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers (features a parallel society of animals living alongside humans), Bonkers (the "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" style of human/toon relations), and Gargoyles (animated characters, but not really toons at all).

A few items from TV Tropes that might be useful:

• Sliding Scale of Anthropomorphism

• The Animation Age Ghetto

But beware the addictive nature of that site.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

In TOON if a character takes enough damage to "Fall Down" the character is out of action for a period of real time world and then returns to the action with all injuries healed. How to do that in GURPS is the question; I presume that it would require a unique Advantage for all Toons in the game as part of a meta-trait or whatever. This does not require regeneration of any sort for the character unless the player takes it to represent being able to just "wipe off" damage during the action. It all depends on where on the Slapstick / Realism line you place the game.

Re: Challenge for settings:GURPS TOON
 

What?

No, this is pretty much cantonal 'unkillable 2', fragile: unnatural, and regeneration.

You can add 'immediate preparation required' to make it not combat useful.

I actually suggested a build that would do this for toons several pages back. Basically by making them unkillable but having minimal offensive capability they would be able to interact with 'normal' humans in a relatively 'benign' way (where its very hard for a toon to kill a human, but able to harm or annoy them easily)