Dodging While Grappling
 

I'm not sure if there are rules for this in the books, but I was curious about some things.

We've had a few situations in my game where a character is holding onto another character, in a non-hostile manner, and somebody else tries to fire at the character being held.

What I presumed is the right thing to do is having the holder do the dodging for them at a malus, and if they fail then I do a coin flip to see who gets hit - The holder or the holdee.

Are there any specific rules for this?

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Yes, there are rules for this.

I don't know the rules for firing into close combat off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure you'll find them in the Basic Set if you look. Since I can't resist looking...you'll be wanting some subset of the rules for ranged attacks on 389-390 and the Striking into Close Combat box on 392. The latter might be only meant for melee attacks, I don't know.

As for the effect of being grappled, remember being grappled gives -4 to DX. That implies -1 to dodge, which is also the rule you'd find on MA 121. As well, you're not free to move so you can't Dodge and Drop.

Er. You're not talking about being grappled. So...I'm not actually sure what 'holding onto another character, in a non-hostile manner' means. It's probably not more of an impediment than being grappled would be unless the held character is seriously entangled or in a posture that impedes dodging. EDIT: I admit, the first line may not be entirely true in light of this.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Holding in a non-hostile manner is a bit vague, but if he's not applying enough GURPSian effort to call the thing a "grapple" (inflict the -4 to DX), then I'd rule that both parties are effectively free to do whatever they want. So either party could dodge, parry, block, or whatever they wanted. If the "held" character wants to take a Move, he could, and just walk away from the other guy.

If the holder is actually grappling the other, say gripping his arm, that's a different story. But as you describe it, it seems that there's no real impact on either one.

I think the second part is covered in Hitting the Wrong Target, pp. B389-390.


I suspect, though, you're going to come back and say that Holder is impairing Target's movement . . . in short, you DO mean that the Grappled toggle in GURPS is on. This imparts -4 to DX, which will impact your Dodge. See Martial Arts, pp. 121-122: Defense While Grappling. You're at -2 to Parry and Block, and -1 to Dodge (the impact of -4 to DX on your Active Defenses).

I don't think that's a high enough penalty to Dodge, but the rules above are canon.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Sorry. The characters in question ARE grappling and being grappled, but it's not intended to be hostile. Like the grappling character is friendly towards the grappled character, but circumstances arose where the grappling character needs to grapple the grappled.

Grapple grapple grapple.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

If you're throwing your partner out of the path of an attack, I'd first make you win the Quick Contest for Shoving People Around (Martial Arts, p. 118). If you don't, presumably he can't see the incoming attack (which is why you're trying to force him to dodge) and so he doesn't get to dodge at all. If he was the natural victim of the shot, he gets attacked. If the attack misses, YOU get attacked according to Hitting the Wrong Target (if you're grappling, you're in close combat).

If you win? Hrm. You'd have to make something up.

* Margin of Victory or some fraction of it as a penalty to the incoming attack.

* You roll your OWN Dodge for him, at -4 but a bonus of your margin of victory that can cancel the penalty.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Well you can't retreat either, so in a way it's a -4.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

True enough. Even without that, -1 to Dodge seems like "too easy" given how restricted you are if you've been Grappled in GURPS.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Consider it this way, your Dodge is generally equal to your Move. E.g. your Move stat may be 5, giving you a Dodge of 8; but if you're Encumbered, your current Move may only be 3, and your Dodge only 6.

If you're Grappled, your move is effectively 0. It could be argued your Dodge should be 3.

Of course, being grappled can mean anything from being in a bear-hug to just having your wrist grabbed. In the former case I'd say your Dodge is 3 and in the latter I'd say it's just at a -1.

EDIT: Substitute "Move" with "Speed".

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Dodge is based on Speed, not Move.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

I stand corrected. But is it still not reduced by encumbrance? If it is, my argument still stands.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Yes, but not at the same rate (see 4e Basic p 17).

A person grappling you doesn't count as encumbrance, unless you have more than twice their ST so they don't stop you from moving away completely and dragging them along with you (4e Basic p 370), in which case, sure the encumbrance lowers Dodge, but otherwise, no.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

This does raise the interesting situation in which (for example) a ST 20 person being grappled by a (slightly overweight) ST 9, 165 lb person will have a larger Dodge penalty than if grappled by a ST 10 person. 165 pounds of encumbrance puts them at Medium encumbrance for -2 Dodge, compared to the -1 Dodge for being grappled. This is something of an edge case, but it still feels counterintuitive.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Somebody should take care of this. Maybe in a book about . . . Nah. That'd be crazy-talk.

:-)

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Oh DouglasCole... you tease us so =P

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Until books (rather than book) of mine sell a jillion copies, I can only make vague hints. While Hans or Bill or David or Sean or Peter can say "My upcoming release deals with [blah]" I don't give myself that luxury.

Yet. :-)

(OK, maybe "ever.")

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

The more-than-double-ST rule explicitly states that it stops the ban on moving away, not that it stops the -4 DX, so ST 9 / 165# guy would inflict a total -3 Dodge on ST 20 guy after both that and encumbrance are factored in. This doesn't hurt my SOD; ST 10 guy is restraining ST 20 guy with pure muscle, while ST 9 guy is forcing ST 20 guy (if he Moves) to carry him.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

Good point. With that in mind, any grappler with ST less than half but weight greater than BL will impose a greater penalty than a stronger grappler.

So, yeah, Technical Grappling is greatly anticipated.

Re: Dodging While Grappling
 

On the other hand, they are also at a disadvantage because they're getting dragged around wherever ST 20 guy wants. If ST 10 guy was willing to put up with that, and confident that his body weight would hinder his target more than his ST, he could always just grab on, go limp (ie: use less than his max effective ST), and drag the guy down instead of trying to control his movement, IMHO.