GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I recently bought GURPS Orcslayer from e23. It was a nostalgia purchase as I once had this book many moons ago.

Anyway, I started reading it and thought, damn, this is a really awesome adventure to introduce both new players and GM's to GURPS, even roleplaying in general. Every scene or encounter is explained in clear and almost step by step detail.

The GM is told everything.
* How to set the scene for the players,
* Exactly what rolls to make, when to make them, and then what happens on a success or failure,
* What the NPCs will do and how they will react to PC's and events,
* Setting up of maps and miniatures,
* What the objectives of the encounter are,
* Special things the GM should be aware of when playing it out,
* And then the rewards at the end of the encounter, be it loot, information, bonus character points, etc.

I mention this because there has been some discussion on entry level GURPS. This adventure could be run by a GM with only a basic understanding of what roleplaying is, but has never run or played a game. To top it off it's a pretty good story too.

Why hasn't this adventure been updated to 4e and given a seat next to Caravan to Ein Arris? It's 52 pages of orc slaying awesomeness.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I'd never got hold of this, so thanks for alerting me. :)

Just snagged it along with Conan.

Ain't word of mouth a wonderful thing?

I've been GMing GURPS for nearly 20 years and have also never read "Caravan to Ein Arris" because one of my players has promised to run it one day... <sigh>

Graham

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

If I recall correctly, Orcslayer was published before GURPS First Edition – it has all of those rules because the Basic Set didn't yet exist.

So you'll have to do some rules conversions to use the adventure with GURPS Fourth Edition... but I'd think it would make an excellent Dungeon Fantasy adventure that doesn't take place in a dungeon.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

The conversion isn't difficult. You can even do it on the fly, if you like. But yes, it's a wonderful little book. I introduced my Yrth campaign with it.

Edited to add: Check out Harkwood, Tredroy (there's an adventure in the back), and Fantasy Adventures as well.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I had the same idea a few weeks ago, when I started preparing a DF campaign set on Yrth. I don't think I'm going to use every encounters at once - it would get repetitive, I think - but one or two between dungeons should make a fun change of pace.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Agreed. To a GM with GURPS experience, conversion is a no brainer. It's things like changing an IQ roll to Per to see something. The difference between 1e and 4e GURPS is not monumental, and in the context of this adventure it's pretty trivial.

Orcslayer, would certainly work well as a DF supplement, but the way the book is written, I think lends itself to the level of GURPS lite. Box this adventure with GURPS lite, colourful illustrations, a few pre-generated player characters, some maps, dice, and cardboard miniatures. And, you have a game which could be grabbed off the shelf by a novice, and be playing a short time later.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Orcslayer appears to actually be a Man to Man supplement.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

It is a Man-to-Man supplement, and it preceded GURPS Basic Set, 1st edition.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Under the hood, Man to Man, is GURPS, which is surprisingly no longer available from e23.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Huh. I have to wonder how a scanned product goes out of print.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

For what it is worth, I based an entire campaign premise on Orcslayer - and even expanded the details involved in why the orcs were taking human prisoners, and why they desperately needed something that humans did well, that the Orcs did not...

Food production.

I then back tracked with the idea (and this was before GURPS BANESTORM came out) that if the Orcs originally were populous and were beaten by the Humans, it was probably because they lacked social cohesion (not unlike the plains indians of America way back when, as well as numerous other tribal organizations that meet up with a well organized invading group).

Long story short? The mover behind the scenes as revealed by the latter part of Orcslayer, had to engage in a war of unification with the orcs in order to take on the humans at Castle Defiance. From there, the orcs needed to keep the humans alive to work the farms so that the orcs who crossed the great desert, could re-invade Caithness and perhaps grab it back from the Humans.

To do all of this however, the orcs had to master the arts of mining - otherwise, they'd be fighting against iron armed humans with little more than bone and stone and wood.

In any event, I detailed the number of manors in operation in support of the humans at Castle Defiance. I also determined the number of humans on the Defiance side of the Great desert, and from there, had a working background that I could use for the players.

So - Orcslayer wouldn't be a bad product to upgrade to 4e status, but it would also make for a nice Gazeteer style product where the region is detailed in more depth. Problem is? With the introduction of GURPS BANESTORM, much of what I had worked out, would either be worthless, or, of no value in the big picture, because Castle Defiant falls to the Orcs by fiat rather than leaving that option to the GM. (Of course, any GM can change things as they see fit - but a module that goes against published material, isn't a very smart move - another reason I really dislike GURPS BANESTORM in general).

Ah well. Nuff said.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Read Orcslayer this morning; perfect Saturday fare with a couple of cups of tea. :)

Yes, what a great introductory adventure. I can see the opening encounter played with complete beginners being hopelessly confusing... exactly as it should be for young squires faced with their first taste of danger. I'd have the Lord give them a firm dressing down afterwards, regardless of how well they think they did.

I like the way that the PCs would all be fighters first and foremost, leaving the complications of magic, religion and thievery to later adventures. After running through this your new players would have a pretty solid grasp on GURPS gameplay and the combat mechanics.

I also really like the frequent suggestions for feeding replacement characters into the game, with good reasons as to why they'd inherit the motives for pushing on to the goal. While I'm usually overly caring about my players' alter egos, this is one story where you could comfortably let the dice decide, and the tension build.

I get what you're saying about the fit with the 4e Banestorm, Hal, and how that would have mucked up your campaign. But tweaks to this story as an introductory game would only be needed if you wanted to run this in the current period (i.e. 2005+). If you're happy to set it back in 1985 it would still fit, and if it turned into a campaign, well, you'd have years to engineer the changes the way you'd want them.

Graham

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I think I once read that Steve Jackson doesn't own the rights to all of his designs. One of the early pseudo-RPGs, probably either Man-to-Man or The Fantasy Trip, was done as a work-for-hire or was later sold to the publishing company, or something. I'm not sure, though. Early GURPS history has never interested me much.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Wow, an Orcslayer Introduction Adventure with included "lite rules" for the 4e would be so great!! Please make it true, I'm pretty sure a lot of person would be happy to buy that thing! Me too, of course :)

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Ordered and downloaded!

Might convert this using the orc stats in DFA1.

Just glancing over it, I can't help but wonder if some of these rules, such as foraging, didn't make their first appearance (or nearly so) here if this preceded GURPS Basic Set, 1st edition.

The artwork is good. I like the lizard man on page 14 and the mountain valley in the crater on page 21. The several NPC character sheets were a nice addition as were the several battle mats.

All-in-all, it looks like a great purchase, especially for $2.95!

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I have begun the GURPS indoctrination of my youngest son (12), and I'm using this adventure to do it. :)

I used the CGA template to built a fairly stock 150pt sword and shield fighter. Because he's the only player, I also gave him 1d6 healing potions, and all enemies automatically fall unconscious at 0 HP.

It has been good so far and he's survived the first 2 scenarios with only minor complications. I have run him through single combats before, but this is the first time he's playing an adventure.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I agree that GURPS lite + adventure + some counters and maps would be a great product to physically put on the shelves, and Orcslayer looks like a good adventure for that. Maybe a 4th edition update could also alter the details so it's not the Yrth/Banestorm setting? Perhaps a better solution would be to update it for "modern" Yrth, but...

I have always noticed that the free Caravan to Ein Arris does not take place on Yrth. It also struck me that the new DF adventure has setting names and features that resemble the Ein Arris setting a good deal. Maybe a 4th edition Orcslayer could be reconstructed to be comparable with those adventures.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Melee, Wizard, Death Test, Death Test II, The Fantasy Trip, Tollenkar's Lair... those were all precursors of sorts, from SJ's days with Metagaming.

The adventures are fairly easy to convert to GURPS. I actually played Death Test as a GURPS solo adventure not too long ago. It was fun, a very bloody hackfest, but fun.

Orcslayer... I really should run that one again. Maybe when my kids get a little older.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

It would appear the answer to that is, yes. I was checking out the What's Hot on e23 for this month, and lo and behold, there is GURPS Classic: Orcslayer.

I played some more with my son, and it's working so well. I'm genuinely convinced this adventure should be part of the staple for those new players looking at GURPS. If I was running my son through Caravan to Ein Arris, I know it would not be so smooth. I really think SJG should consider this book for update to 4th ed. Very little would actually have to be changed, the character sheets, some NPC's stats, and the odd rule change like using Per instead of IQ for a vision check.

So, with that in mind...

I'd like to entertain a question and hopeful get some interesting ideas/discussion. If you were to update Orcslayer to the 4th ed Banestorm timeline (ie 2005), how would you do it?

In the current timeline Castle Defiant fell to the orc's because King Conall of Caithness failed to send reinforcements in time to prevent it's fall. Castle Defiant is now the stronghold of Bulgaren the dwarf and his orc followers.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

The quality of the scanning wasn't good enough (some parts were outright black instead of grey, making such sections impossible to read), and the PDF cardboard minis were missing (that was last time I asked . . . about two years ago). I guess they removed the product from the e23 store because some of these reasons.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I just noticed the new Pathfinder Beginner Box which seems to be very popular...
Something like that with GURPS would be awesome and I'm quite sure it would be especially attractive for people new to the system.


Content could be like that (of course not everything would be a 'must have' but all that leaves out no wishes :p)

- A customized version of GURPS Lite, for instance only rules needed for Fantasy and fitting to that Orcslayer Adventure. With some more detailed examples to make things really easy to learn.
- Orcslayer for 4e and another following pre-made adventure or even a small campaign for that setting. Ideally a small solo-adventure, too ;)
- 5 or 6 ready-to-play sample Fantasy Characters.
- 5 or 6 blank Char Sheets.
- A nice color map which fits to the given adventures.
- A set of nice cardboard heroes with images of the sample PCs and the NPCs/Creatures for the given adventures.
- Three appealing d6's.


That would be so great and I think it makes a REALLY great gift for any gamer!! :)

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Heh, well, not quite what I'd do.

Two copies of GURPS Lite with cardboard covers.
One copy of GURPS Fantasy Lite with magic, races, and monsters.
One copy of GURPS Banestorm.
Two double-sided battle map posters.
18 1/32 scale plastic figures. Yeah I've got a problem, need help, blah blah blah whatever :D

So two sprues of orcs and one of reptile men and one of adventurers with separate weapon hands.

I figure a male knight, a female knight, a dwarf, an elf, a female thief, and a male wizard. The orcs would have separate heads and weapons.

Sure you could go 1/56 but GURPS maps are clearly 1/36 and 1/32 is a well supported scale. Also, soft plastic may be cheaper to moulds for. I'm not quite sure these days, it used to be but the technology has really changed the last few years.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

If there were a new Orcslayer, I would be interested on it but only if the Yrth/Banestorm setting were completely discarded from the product.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

It's also the type of product that sells in Target/Walmart, which have a large potential customer base.

I'm a veteran GURPS'er who has little need for such a product, but I would still buy it.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Boxes are pricey for the manufacturer. If it were a soft-cover with detachable character sheets, however, that might work.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I'll go you one more and suggest that a sheet of Cardboard Heroes be included. Once you have a "gameboard" and "cut-out playing pieces" you may be able to sell the game as a standalone to some of the retail stores.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

While nice, I think it would raise the price tag too high for an entry level game.

Banestorm is such a fantastic setting, but not an requirement to run Orcslayer as there is enough setting info in the adventure to inform the players.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

And I was just about to post again to suggest that little oversight.

As a side note, has SJG ever considered selling Cardboard Heroes PDFs tied to its products? Say, Mirror of the Fire Demon. For something like $3.99, there's a PDF of cardboard figures of all the creatures in the adventure on e23. Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters work well for this kind of thing, as does Creatures of the Night.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

If the box is too pricey then I imagine the books could still be plastic wrapped with the cardboard heroes, plastic bases, sheets, maps and dice. The box just looks like a more inviting product, and ideally you want to factor box price into the final price anyway.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

You don't need plastic bases for cardboard heroes, and dice ... one of the appeals of GURPS is that it uses three six siders, something you can find around the house.

Plastic wrap isn't bad, but it keeps you from looking at the book in the bookstore. That's one of the big draws of the bookstore.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Plus there's the slight insanity that in some countries the distinction between "book" and "game" is "does it have dice" which can mean a considerable amount of VAT that gets added to the price.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

No, you don't need plastic bases, but to have heavy stock cardboard heroes with the bases does look more appealing, without going to the expense of prepainted plastic minis. Also, granted a few d6's may not be necessary, but adding them makes it a more complete product. Plus the SJG d6's with the all seeing eye do look pretty cool.

Something else that might also work is an added DVD with a filmed example of a short encounter. That should help the completely uninitiated get into the game.

I also don't think the market for a product such as this is in your average gaming bookstore, while it would certainly sell there, you want to have this on the shelves of large chain toy & hobby stores, Target and Walmart. In these cases the ability to flip through the book is not important, it's fancy artwork on the box that will sell it.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I'm not sure the entry price would be too high. The plastic miniatures can be offered separately. They don't have to be masterpieces, just solid toy soldiers. Call me weird but I've always wanted GURPS to have a proper range of toy soldiers. I'm a scale fanatic. Crappy dollar store toy soldiers really annoy me.

Anyhow, for a cheap product, I'd suggest a single booklet. I'm guessing having an uncut insert fold-out as a poster map is a logistical nightmare so we won't do that. What we will do is an overleaf of cardboard heroes like they did on GURPS Autoduel first edition. I've always thought that was a brilliant solution. We'll drop the scale of the maps to 1/72 to make them a little tighter. Actually I'd be good with 1/72 toy soldiers too but they wouldn't be in this set.*

Oh well, so we've got a saddle stitched book with a fold out of figures and a pull out of maps with half inch hexes. Pulling the maps out of a perfect bound book would destroy it so we're using staples. We cram in GURPS Lite as is, a magic section that's cut down a bit from what's in the basic set a races and monsters section, and Orcslayer. Price it at maybe $17.50.

*There are a couple companies already doing generic fantasy in 1/72 and I'll bet you they could be bought cheap in bulk as long as the price point of the final product didn't out compete their own products. But they would work good in an 11 x 5.5 booklet scale box and it could have folded poster maps in it. I'd call the box GURPS ORC SLAYER and use the original cover art with a modern logo but that's just me.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I agree with this. The cardboard minis PDFs could be also an optional purchase related to the product.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Well, of course a box would have to come at a higher price, but a box is a much more appealing product for many customers, thus hopefully you can sell more.
Moreover IMHO the most important point is that a box is more attractive for new customers who didn't play GURPS, yet. So if these persons like the box, chances are good that at least some of them will buy other GURPS books, too, in the future... And that makes it really worthy for the manufacturer!

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

This would be a nice kickstater project. Anyway, its a lot easier to make molds these days with the ton of 3d printers vendors who drive the price down. Although, id rather it be like many of those new dnd board games with great minis.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

If the project was going to be kickstarted, then I would definitely be aiming higher and go for the plastic miniatures over the cardboard heroes, colour softcovers for both the books, and well detailed colour battlemaps.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

As I see it there's essentially two types of entry product. The cheap first hit and the big fat toy box. Zombies has done okay with the middle of the road but my own guess is that you want either a single booklet at around $18 (round numbers are a bad thing) or a single box around $ 72. I think the current Games Workshop starters speak to the wisdom of being over fifty and under eighty.

Still, I've always thought a nice set of toy soldier grade figures is a thing of its own. It's cheaper to do and has its own appeal. I only went with separate weapons since PCs want the figure to be appropriately armed and separate heads because orc heads almost never look right in one piece.

Really a 9 x 12 box with 100 1/72 plastic figures including gargoyles and dragons would be a fantastic starter.

But then I can't figure out why nobody's done generic fantasy adventurers in 28mm plastic either.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

What makes you think the box is more appealing for most, and that you can sell more of them?

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I wish I could give an eloquent defense of the box for a beginner's set (vs. the bag or plastic wrap idea). I'm a supporter of using a box for such things. It just feels more professional to me and makes a statement of seriousness on the part of the publisher that a bag or plastic wrap doesn't.

Overall, I think this is a potentially great idea. Why not publish something that is effectively an updated version of the old 1st and 2nd ed. box set (except with some basic rules for magic). Focus attention on 1-3 genres (fantasy and maybe modern action or space?) to demonstrate the strength of a generic rules set. Then an updated Orcslayer adventure (or whatever) and maybe a short, intro adventure for the other genre. Nothing too fancy, but with decent production value. Maybe throw in the dice and some cardboard heroes and maps as well. One thing I'd definitely include is a detailed catalog of the most important current GURPS publications. Part of this would include a basic flow chart or whatnot making suggestions for products to look at depending on genre interest, style of game play (gritty realistic or cinematic), etc. Maybe even include some sort of electronic coupon that could be redeemed for a discounted copy of the full basic set or other products.

Some key benefits of some sort of beginner's box:
1) it could incorporate the years of advice given by fans and critics on how to make GURPS more accessible to the non-veteran gamer (w/o making the already published basic set redundant).
2) it could be actively promoted to gaming stores and bookstores (and maybe even toy stores?) keeping GURPS in the gaming community and public's eye. SJG wouldn't even have to worry at all about actively marketing other GURPS publications - the beginner's set could act as advertising and marketing by itself bringing more customers to e23/warehouse23, expanding the overall player base and in so doing creating more incentive for everyone's local gaming store to continue stocking GURPS material.
3) room for fun stuff: dice, miniatures, etc. (like everyone's already mentioned).

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I wonder how it works in sjgames? Does the writers send proposals and a biz plan w/ costing or its the management who assigns someone this task (proposals and biz plan). Is saying GO a matter of risk, everyone tied up, or is wotc minis supplier exclusive or cant beat their prices, or the maket is just too niche?

I could already guestimate from lurking its going to be a lot of work, if it gets approved probably 6 months to finish pre launching stuff given the current load that appears for people im sj.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

It is interesting to note that since Ronnke started this thread, Orcslayer has sold 18 copies. It sold 13 copies in the whole of 2011, and 21 in 2010.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Well, that primarily referred to new customers where I can see different advantages of the box approach, e.g. closer relation to already known board games which "builds bridges" and makes it easier to sell this also in stores not specialized in rpg's.
But in general, also for experienced gamers, in my opinion boxes have some psychological bonuses: For instance there is a relation to opening a nice packaged present (which makes it a better gift also).
There are a lot of details coming to my mind, but I find it hard to explain in short. Also in my local and online gamer community I noticed a lot of interest in boxed versions across the systems in the last years, which may have something to do with retro (old school) factor, too. Anyway, there is never an evidence for such marketing assumptions, so you might see it differently.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I want GURPS miniatures, too. An array of basic fantasy characters would be good, but what I really want is even more niche; I want miniatures of the aliens from Aliens. Of course, the cidi mini would be a little speck.

I've thought about having some made by Shapeways, but my modelling skills still need some work, I am finding.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I've noticed that you seem disconnected with reality of the table-top RPG gaming market. Do you play anything other than GURPS? Have you been to a RPG hobby store in recent years?

Just curious.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Perhaps. But I'm looking for any real sales data, and I'm going off Ryan Dancey's recent note on ENWorld, in which he mentioned that the cost of a boxed set over a hardcover was often a "multiple, rather than a percentage."

Yes, I am aware of Paizo's success with its entry-level product, though I wonder how the extra shelf space given to Pathfinder over, well, anything but D&D makes a difference here.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

The whole point of an entry level product is to get people to buy additional product. In a way it's much like a lost leader that's used to get people into a store. I have reason to believe that an introductory boxed set is too much work for too little reward for SJG to bother. And over on the Ogre board we got into discussion of plastic figures and got a solid not going to happen response.

I've argued for a GURPS lite fantasy module for years and will continue to do so. I even offered to write it but Steve Jackson told me no. Though it was really cool that he took the time to do so directly. I suspect one reason SJ is resistant to the idea is that the races and monsters in Banestorm are its main selling point. So just copying and pasting them together with the magic rules in the Basic Set as I've often suggested probably isn't viable.

I'm running GURPS Fantasy these days so I might get around to writing one myself and ask for permission to put it out there as a fan made book if my store results in a bit of dead time when I can work on such projects.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Very good article, thanks for mentioning it, I really did not know that boxed sets were often sold with loss in the past... However, the author himself points in the direction that one of the possible future paths is a closer relation to family (board) games, which are boxed sets! (Quote: "I think that commercially successful TRPGs of the future will be constructed more like a family game – something that can be unpacked, learned quickly, and played with little prep work.")

IMHO that is what makes an entry product as other have said, too! Of course such a box is expensive but the payback is getting new customers and establing new gamer networks rather than the money directly paid for that one box... The follow-up products in the line, like different source books, advanced rules etc., don't need boxes anymore.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I suspect that you're right, which depresses me to no end. I understand that SJG has been successful by being careful about what they invest their money in, etc., but I also suspect that this is a strategy with potential downsides. If one is too hesitant to invest in some sort of marketing product (e.g. like the beginner's boxed set we've been talking about), doesn't that create the potential that your company starts losing money and customers (if only potential ones) just through lack of presence? With GURPS, has SJG simply decided to only publish products for the established customer base (which is my suspicion)? Is there ANY strategy for actively trying to win new players or is it simply being left to word of mouth? One would think that Kromm and RPK (and everyone else involved in publishing GURPS material) would have a vested interest in expanding their customer base or at least maintaining it. The tabletop RPG market may be shrinking overall, but I don't see why that has to mean that you can't fight for a bigger piece of the smaller pie. I would love to see some sort of official statement about this.

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I think he'd argue that GURPS Myth, GURPS Hellboy, GURPS WWII, GURPS Disc World and others were introductory products and less than stunningly successful. Personally I think they're all self limiting liscences. If you're not into that specific liscence you probably won't buy the book.

Anyhow, I suspect the free an low priced entry point is the way to go these days. Not many people will drop $50 on a book just because it's got a cool cover.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Gotta agree with you, especially on the first count. GURPS Hellboy is only going to be of interest to those who are both into Hellboy and into rpg's (and willing to give something other than D&D derivatives a try), for example. You'd imagine that there'd be a decent sized potential customer base that'd fit both, but ....

And while I'd love to see a beginner's boxed set (if only for reasons of personal nostalgia), maybe a $5 or $7 softcover booklet would work? As long as it covered the basic game mechanics, demonstrated how those mechanics could be used in 2 or more genres, provided lots of GMing advice, had a simple run-down of how to introduce various rules to custom set the difficulty/complexity of the individual gaming group's set-up, etc. Lot's of hand-holding, in other words. Pitch it at those who've been brought into the hobby through 4th ed D&D (they do exist), not those who've already been playing GURPS for the past 25 years. I don't see why SJG couldn't double their customer base for GURPS products this way (esp. if the dedicated audience they're already aiming at is as small as some of the estimates I've seen - e.g. 1,000 worldwide, though I'd have to search hard to find my source for that figure).

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

...but a lot of us who're both into Hellboy and into rpgs (and willing to give something other than D&D derivatives a try) took one look at the product and said, "Hey, that's a neat idea that might hook a couple of noobs, but I can do my own GURPS conversion..."

You're going after a very tiny niche when you try to recruit non-gamers using a licensed property, IMHO.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

In many ways, I think the Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunter efforts function much like an "entry level" product into those particular campaign types for already-established GURPS players. GURPS requires the GM to do a lot of prep work, and these products do some of it for you while providing templates to help the players.

As long as we're talking about the difficulties of SJG producing even one entry-level GURPS product, I'd like to suggest that it would be cool to see one or two entry-level adventure/lite rules products for each of DF, MH, and Action. That way, new customers could be pulled into each of those lines and, through them, into GURPS as a larger system. (Still need a good sci-fi line, like the "bug hunters" idea that's been tossed about, but that is a whole other kettle of threads.)

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Here's the problem: they're (mostly) online-only. They're only through e23 as well, not even through RPGNow. I think the goal here is to what Ryan Dancey was alluding in the linked thread: something that is buy-and-play. (Note that this does not necessarily mean a boxed set; he merely used a boxed family game as an example.) You have the Orcslayer adventure, some tear-off character sheets, a few maps, some Cardboard Heroes, a short (1-4 pages) summary of the rules for the players and a booklet for the GM. Tell the buyer to get some dice, cut out the Cardboard Heroes, read through the adventure once or twice to get an idea what is going on.

The barriers to this are:

* Death of the FLGS. I presume this is true from the numbers; I actually live by quite a few. Regardless, only one (The Source) gaming store around here carries RPGs in real volume. The two at which I game carry D&D, Pathfinder and the manager's pet system (one is Traveller-heavy, the other, IIRC, likes Shadowrun).
* Reduction in the big chain sellers. Not only that, the Barnes and Nobles I browse are all D&D, not even Pathfinder. Ten years ago, I read through GURPS Reign of Steel at a Barnes and Noble; no longer.
* Production expense. Again, boxed sets are expensive, and I seriously doubt they sell so much more that they cover anything near the extra expense. Even ignoring that, doing this as a softcover means something like a weird folder setup. I ran a D&D adventure, the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, a few years ago that has such a setup. (Get a piece of the vrock ...) It was $19.95, but Wizards of the Coast likely has lowered production expenses.
* Development expense. I have little doubt that what Matt Riggsby and Sean Punch have written about the development of Mirror of the Fire Demon is true. I know from having written an adventure for (rejected) submission that these are tedious to write, and playtesting is going to be intense. You're going for the lowest common denominator; you have to grab folks in a shopping mall or something.

All of this makes the whole idea mostly theoretical. There would need to be a surplus from Munchkin sales and a marketing insight that none of us are going to know.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Out of curiosity, did anybody ever convert Orcslayer to 4E? Even if not pretty or just some scribbled notes in a word document, I'd love to see the results.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Harkwood is hands-down the best module I have ever seen or worked with.

Ever.

I cannot stress this enough. Rave reviews from my players afterwards, a pleasure to work with as the GM, it was excellent.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I'd have to echo that sentiment myself. In fact? I'd suggest that if one were to try and add detail to Yrth for Caithness, Harkwood would be my first choice.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

An entry level product is a single purchase that gets you going. Not a strung out series of products building on an intimidating and hard to use core.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Which makes me think in a GURPS Dungeon Fantasy stripped-to essentials starter set.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

There was an *excellent* (while it lasted) PvP 4E Orcslayer game on rpol.net a couple of years ago, with great maps and hidden movement. But the GM heavily modified things to fit using PCs on both sides -- instead of a few 100-point PCs versus a dozen 30-point orc mooks, I think the first fight was 6 125-point humans versus 6 100-point orcs. (And almost everyone died on both sides.)

I think you can just play it straight without a lot of conversion. Axes are better in 4E than in Man to Man, so all those axe-wielding orcs get better. But it's not like the original adventure was perfectly balanced for any particular group of PCs. If you have tactically astute players with combat monster characters, you'll need more or better orcs than if you have clueless players with well-rounded characters.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Harkwood is the GURPS entry level adventure! I've ran it several times. Flight 13 as well. Both great GURPS adventures.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Here's a few conversions I've cooked up for myself, in my own GM sheet shorthand.

Orc Marauder
BS: 5.5 Move: 5 ST 12 DX 11 IQ 9 HT 11 Dodge: 8 Parry: 9
HP 12 BL: 29 lbs Will 9 Per 10 FP 11 DR: 2 (1 vs. imp) Medium Leather Tunic and Hood
Throwing Axe—13: 1d+4 cut Acc 2 Range 12/18 Light Club—13: 1d+3 cr
Large Knife—12: 1d cut; 1d-1 imp Brawling—12: 1d-2 cr Wrestling—11
Night Vision 7; Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +3; Bully; Climbing—12, Hiking—12, Stealth—12.

Bugbear Bushwhacker (Hobgoblins in the original)
BS: 5.5 Move: 5 ST 13 DX 12 IQ 8 HT 10 Dodge: 8 Parry: 9
HP 13 BL: 34 lbs Will 8 Per 10 (Smell 13) FP 10 DR: 2 Fur
Knobbed Club—13: 2d cr Bite—14: 1d cut Claw—14: 1d+1 cr Wrestling—13: ST 14
Dark Vision; Climbing—13, Stealth—13. Leader: Rusty Broadsword—13: 2d cut; 1d+2 imp

Forest Elf Guardian
BS: 5.75 Move: 6 ST 10 DX 13 IQ 10 HT 10 Dodge: 9 Parry: 10
HP 8 BL: 20 lbs Will 10 Per 12 FP 10 DR: 0 (1 vs. cut) Light Leather Tunic
Bow—15: 1d-1 imp (10 sec/ HT-3 vs. Sleep) Acc 2 Range 150/200 Shortsword—13: 1d cut; 1d-1 imp
Combat Reflexes; Night Vision 5; Fast-Draw (Arrow)—14, Stealth—14, Tracking—13.

Lizard Man Savage
BS: 5.75 Move: 6 ST 13 DX 11 IQ 9 HT 12 Dodge: 8 (11 with shield) Parry: 10 (13) Block: 13
HP 13 BL: 34 lbs Will 9 Per 9 FP 12 DR: 2 Scaly Hide and Nictitating Membrane
Spear—14 (12 with shield): 1d+3 imp (1d+2 1-Handed) Acc 2 Range 13/20 Round Mace—14: 2d+1 cr
Large Shield, Light—14: 1d cr DB: 3 DR: 2 Cover DR: 6 HP 18 10 lbs. -2 to attack rolls
Bite or Claw—14: 1d cut Tail Strike—12: 1d+2 cr
Born Biter; Peripheral Vision; Temperature Tolerance 3 (Heat); Terrain Adaption (Sand).

Orc Soldier
BS: 5.5 Move: 3 ST 12 DX 11 IQ 9 HT 11 Dodge: 6 (8 with shield) Parry: 10 (12) Block: 11
HP 12 BL: 29 lbs Will 9 Per 10 FP 11 DR: 4 Medium Scale Armor (-1 vs. cr) and Pot Helm
Spiked Axe or Large Falchion—14: 1d+4 cut; 1d imp Javelin—12: 1d imp Acc 3 Range 18/30
Medium Shield, Heavy—12: 1d-1 cr DB: 2 DR: 4 Cover DR: 9 HP 20 14 lbs.
Large Knife—12: 1d cut; 1d-1 imp Brawling—12: 1d-2 cr Wrestling—11
Night Vision 7; Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +3; Bully; Hiking—12, Soldier –10.

Dwarf Sergeant
BS: 6.25 Move: 4 ST 15 DX 12 IQ 10 HT 13 Dodge: 8 (10 with shield) Block: 12
HP 15 BL: 58 lbs Will 12 Per 10 FP 16 DR: 6 Medium Plate Armor; 4 Hands & Feet +1 Tough Skin
Morningstar—14: 3d cr -2 to block, -4 to parry Wrestling—13: ST 18*
Medium Shield, Heavy—14: 1d+1 cr DB: 2 DR: 4 Cover DR: 9 HP 20 14 lbs.
*Lifting ST +2; Night Vision 5; Resistant to Poison +3; TL 4; Intimidation—14, Tactics—11.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I did some digging on RPOL and came up with nothing. A little googling turned up a single user who ran an Orcslayer game for 4E. Both he (Ceredyn) and several other folks made reference to it in OCC threads and in the general lounge areas. I sent him an rMail and have my fingers crossed.

Yes! Thank you sooooo much. I might just whip this out this weekend with my wife. I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. This will see personal use! ^_^

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

Hey Mulsiphix,

Also, I wonder if you checked DF 15: Henchmen. I find that this sourcebook offers some useful pieces of crunch and advice for one-on-one gaming, that is to say, campaigns with one player.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

I wasn't aware they had released a #15 yet. That sounds perfect! I'm definitely making the purchase. Thank You for the heads up!

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

It would probably take some tweaking for this to be usable with dungeon fantasy, simply because of power levels. For example, the first encounter involves orcs pushing their way up a staircase which they can only get up one at a time. A DF knight or similar character can literally kill hundreds of mediocre skill orcs with that kind of advantage.

Re: GURPS Orcslayer - Entry level GURPS
 

You are welcome!

If you are going to pick it up, about one-on-one gaming look for these sections in chapter two: The Use and Abuse of Henchmen > As Allies > Pros and Cons of Allies,