Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Heya! Just joined the forum because my roommates were having a debate over the validity of, what I think, is a very clever (if ambiguous) series of an initial winning strategy and a counter.

Basically, it goes like this: we're playing with the original set of Munchkin cards. My roommate - Michael - was a Cleric class. He's level 9, about to win, when he plays the Wand of Dowsing, allowing him to go back through the discard pile and pick any card he wants. He chooses Divine Intervention, which allows clerics to go up a level immediately, and can be used to get to level 10 and win the game.

Then, my roommate Blake uses the Change Class card. I feel like this is the only way to really counter the divine intervention card, and so does Blake. However, Michael disagrees and states that he'd have had to use the Change Class curse BEFORE he used the Wand of Dowsing to get the Divine Intervention card.

Now, while I see the legitimacy of both sides, I feel like the only way to have an effective STRATEGY (as opposed to simple luck at having played the Change Class card before you even knew your opponent was going to use the Wand of Dowsing to get Divine Intervention) is to allow for the initial strategy of leveling up a cleric to happen, only to COUNTER with changing the class. It seems more clever and fun to make deliberate counters, as opposed to just randomly playing cards in the hopes that someone's day gets ruined. The way we played it out, with Michael winning and Blake's counter-strategy being invalidated, seems to take more power out of the hands of the player, and put it into the simple serendipity of drawing cards from the deck and blindly throwing cards around.

What do you guys think? Should we have kept playing with Michael's strategy having been invalidated? Or was it right that Michael won, despite Blake's strategic and unconventional use of the Change Class card?

Looking forward to what the forum has to say about this!

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Munchkin resolves cards as they are played. If a player is a Cleric when Divine Intervention comes out -- however it comes out -- he gets the level immediately.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Though to add, Blake could play Change/Lose Class on Michael after the latter picked up the DI with Wand of Dowsing, but before he put DI into play, which would leave Michael holding and being able to play DI, but no longer being a Cleric, right?


Question is just to make sure things haven't changed:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...65&postcount=9

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Once he pulls the DI card, he has to play the card immediately. There isn't a window of decision with this the way there is with some other cards. If you want to make him lose his Class, play the card before he finishes going through the discard piles.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Yeah, if a L9 cleric starts digging through the discard pile, I'd be sure to get rid of his class as soon as reasonably possible.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

In many other card games, a system called a stack is used. It works as follows. When someone plays a card, another player can play a different card on "the stack". Then once ppl stop playing cards on the stack, you resolve by starting with the most recently played card. Meaning in your specific case, he would lose his class and not gain the level even through DI was played first.
Of course this is just one method. I hope it helps.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

EDIT: Ignore this post, it's wrong.

That won't work in Munchkin. He can only dig through a discard if a card allows him to do so, and the effect of that card must be resolved before any other card can be played (with a small number of exceptions such as Annihilation). So if he's digging through the discard pile, it's too late to stop him from pulling and playing Divine Intervention.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

That is not what Andrew said, isn´t it?

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

EDIT: Ignore this post, it's wrong.

Not exactly. I'm saying that once he begins looking through the discard pile, it's already too late to make him lose his class.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

The thing is Munchkin doesn't have a "stack" mechanic.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Let me expand upon that: The stack mechanism is not a natural application of real time cause-and-effect, so games that use it actually have to define what a stack is and how it works with respect to that game. Munchkin doesn't provide such rules, so no stack mechanism should be inferred by those who are familiar with such a mechanism.

In fact, in Munchkin, cards that do cancel another card are rare, and specifically say that they can cancel another card that was just played.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Is that correct? I would think that if he is still digging through the deck any card played before he finds the card he wants could be played... an immediate curse before he has even played or found divine intervention seems like it would work.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

EDIT: Ignore this post, it's wrong.

Let's see if I can make it clear.

1) You can't just dig through the discards -- you must have played a card or used an ability that allows you to go through the discards.

2) That card/ability must be resolved before anything else can happen.

3) If the card retrieved from the discard pile is Divine Intervention, it is played immediately, before anything else can happen.

4) Thus, if a Cleric begins going through the discard pile to retrieve Divine Intervention, it's too late to stop him from going up a level (with the exception of cards that take effect retroactively, like Annihilation).

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

The card is resolved as soon as the player begins searching the discards -- you do not have to wait for him to finish searching to play other cards. (Also note that I've previously ruled that use of the Wand of Dowsing or similar cards cannot be used to forestall the end of combat -- you can't use it to bring the game to a screeching halt for your fishing expedition.)

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Okay. I stand corrected.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Everyone should reread Andrew's post more carefully. As soon as a player starts digging through the discard pile and before he finds DI you can change his class.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I see the issue clearly now..

The wand of Dowsing is resolved once they start digging as Andrew said... The Divine Intervention issue is that cards particular issue

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I apologize if this question has already been answered, but if a Cleric "Loots the Room" and gets the Divine Intervention card, are they able to keep that card in their hand until they get to the 9th level and immediately win the game with it? I was thinking that even when looting the room that Up a Level cards immediately applied, and holding DI until the end would be cheating. However, a friend of mine claimed victory by using that method. Who is correct in this case?

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

No. The card says, "You must play this card as soon as you get it." You cannot ever keep it in your hand.

Go Up a Level cards can be kept in your hand, though (Divine Intervention is not a GUAL). You can play them whenever you want, provided the person you play them on is Level 8 or below.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I knew it! B-rad (the guy who won the game with that cheating strategy) believes it's not cheating if he doesn't get caught or can get me too confused to overrule him. So as the game owner, I'm officially revoking his victory! LOL!

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

He can believe anything he wants, but it's still cheating.
And cheating will get you kicked out of any game I play.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Agreed. I'm of the Lawful Good Alignment when I play games (even if my characters aren't) and that sounds like a good idea to me.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

Would I be correct in assuming that if the card you want is on top of the discard or readily available within a reasonable 2.6 second window this would be ok?

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I'm pretty sure you can use Wand of Dowsing whenever you want. Just don't use it to purposefully hold up the game just to stall someone from winning.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I mean technically the first rule in the muchkins game book explicitly allows cheating. :P

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

If your group wants a faster, looser game, that's fine, but in this forum we answer questions using the rules as written, and there's nothing condoning cheating in any currently published rule sets.

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

I'm sorry but when I was "Looting the Room" I got the Divine Intervention card. We had 9nth lvl Cleric, so he gets +1 lvl but i had in a hand Change/Lose Class. Can i play Change/Lose Class it against him or he instantly gets 10 lvl?

Re: Rules Discrepancy - Divine Intervention Card
 

You must play Divine Intervention immediately -- there's no chance to play something else first.