How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

OK, working on my magic system for the Kaya (elves) and I was going to use the RPM system. I use it in several places for this world but replace the path skills.
The 5 elements are no problem.
However to fit the background I want to add in the Muses as well.
Memory from Mneysomne is fine.
But Poetry? Dance? most of the muses realms would be more like a method of casting rather then a typical Path.
Now I do not mind, in fact it is desired to have some limited Paths.
So while a Path of Dance, Song or love poetry may not be high on an adventurers list it could be very nice at Court.
So should I make them Path skills and let people struggle to come up with good effects, use them to substitute for Thaumatology (kind of neat and could be the basis for Bards), make them action skills or modifiers that can reduce casting cost, or something else?
Or heck all the above :)

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Why not one path for the muses collectively? I'm sure you can come up with at least one ritual for each. Are they not generally discussed collectively? I can't even name them all without looking them up. However, Calliope by herself might justify magic to imbue an adventurer with the attributes of legendary heroes, such as the strength of Heracles or cleverness of Odysseus. -GEF

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

My choice in this situation would be to have a half-dozen spheres of magic (ie, Paths) but with different ways to access them depending on the tradition. So classic wizards would use Thaumatology and IQ-based Path skills, while a Bard would use Musicology (or something, don't know if there's already a RAW skill that fits) and IQ-based Path skills which default to it, and one of these dancing elves would have another appopriate replacement for Thaum and DX-based Path skills. In all cases the Paths themselves would be the same. Otherwise I think it would get unneccesarily complex. However, you could apply some limitations to certain traditions - ie, one style of casting is ill-suited for dimension-spanning effects (teleportations and summons) and so has a steep penalty to attempt those, while another style simply doesn't have access to the Path of Undead. This might qualify practitioners to a discount on their Magery and/or Adept traits.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

The nine muses are Calliope, epic poetry; Clio, history; Melpomene, tragedy; Thalia, comedy; Erato, lyric and love poetry; Polyhymnia, choral poetry; Euterpe, flute playing; Terpsichore, dance; and Urania, astronomy. These seem to be more modes of spell casting than classes of effects (even Urania could fit in as casting spells by doing horoscopes). Inconveniently, at least Melpomene and Polyhymnia require multiple performers, and while you could justify Thalia with a solo performer, her primary focus was on comedies as in stage plays, which needed a minimum of two.

You could always focus on the types of effects desired to be produced: Calliope to favor combat, Melpomene to induce madness and violent emotion, Erato for love, and so on.

Bill Stoddard

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

They are often discussed in literature collectively.
But having them all be the same skill loses some of the feel I wanted to get in using them in the first place. Unless maybe I just use them to replace Thaumatology. Or maybe they default to each other.


I dont mind it being complex. The world has well over a dozen magic systems and I do not expect any player to want to use them all.
So if a player chose not to use this one becasue it was too complex or too weak for adventuring I am ok with that as long as it adds the flavor to the race that I want.
As to different path skills I already have at least 2 other systems and possibly more and I am not done yet. Each system uses different paths just like say you could have tree and Ogham in the same world as two syntactic systems.

But I think each Muses would be too narrow and weak as a path to be fair.
Vampires use very narrow paths but get corresponding things to make up for it and they have a lot of power.

As a method of casting though a few give me trouble, but I am leaning towards that for the moment.
Still they seem odd. Love poetry, comedy and astronomy in particular.
But we could just say that certain kinds are used more on adventures and the rest at home or the Inn. Also each method could have modifiers for casting time and certain effects. Hmm what about each skill has its own method of casting but they have a modifier on some spell effects? Love Poetry could be 1/2 the cost for love spells for example.


Ah this might even be a better way.
I use the Muses not to replace Thaumatology or as new Paths. Instead each Muse can represent a skill you call on for the energy accumulation roll.
So how good a performer you are tends to influence how fast you can accumulate energy.
And you have the option of using the normal method if you want. Say you need to be stealthy about it for example. Or instead of using the lowest path skill involved you can use your Muse skill, say Dance or poetry.
Keeps it pretty simple and adds a certain style.


I can then say the human Bards learned this from the kaya (was going to do that anyhow) but now it makes sense that they sing or recite a tale (history, Drama or Comedy) to cast spells. Also I can give a bonus based on audience participation. Originally had planed on using Cone of Power for that.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

I'd probably make the Muses responsible for subpaths (possibly forms of divination specifically) within a larger Apollonian or Solar path of magic, which itself would fit into a system of paths based on the astrological planets and their correspondences. So, you'd have Telluric or earthly, lunar, solar, martial, venereal, mercurial, jovial, and saturnine aspects of magic.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Thanks Bill you hit on my dilemma exactly. It could go either way as a mode of casting or an area of influence but either way was not a perfect fit and had problems. I think the energy accumulation skill might work though.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

No planets.
This is kind of like Disc World. Originally it was a ring world back when I ran it under 3e but in rebuilding it for Fourth Edition I made it a Chalice.
Your idea is solid though do not get me wrong. It just doesn't get me the feel I was looking for. I want Mneysmone (Memory and in some circles mother of the muses) and the Muses to be and feel important in the game. At least to this worlds version of elves.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

For some of the large group ones you might want to look at the rules for mass magic in Urban Magics. Greek amphitheaters easily held audiences far larger than the 100 who can contribute to ceremonial magic.

Bill Stoddard

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Own it. Love it.
Elves (or Bards) using the system of Energy accumulation with these skills could cast some pretty powerful spells and it all fits together pretty nicely rather then a bunch of different things mixed together. And a play could act out what the spell is supposed to do. So a magical ritual of fertility for the crops could be the story of Persephone for example.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Why, with a ritual for each muse, and a technique for each ritual?

If you have multiple rituals for each muse, then you could specify favorable defaults between their respective techniques. Make this path have few rituals, all of them powerful, so characters have an incentive to buy the techniques above default. That way, each follower of the muse path will be known for the muse(s) in which he specializes.

GEF

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Even if it's not planetary correspondences, you could still break things down according to the Olympians and some other major figures, supposing that the Muses and Mnemosyne exist in that context with the Muses associated with Apollo.

Apollo - light, the arts, knowledge, archery, disease and healing, prophecy and divination
- each Muse represents a different mode of spellcasting, and specifically of divination or predestination
- Mnemosyne is patroness of the art of memory, and along with Clio, gathering knowledge of the past
- other subsidiary paths associated with Apollo could be those of Orpheus and Asclepius and his daughters
- have the elves be generally devotees of Apollo and Mnemosyne and her daughters, possibly having the story be that Apollon Mousagetes rather than Zeus is their father as well, or that he's the husband of all of them, with children by ones other than Calliope, Orpheus' mom

Artemis - hunting and tracking, virginity and fertility and childbirth, disease and healing (particularly of pregnancy), wild animals, wilderness - another group of elves could be more closely aligned with her

and so on for Dionysos, Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hera, Demeter, Hephaestus, Hestia, Athena, and any others not part of the Dodekatheon you deem important enough or to fill a gap in coverage - maybe Hecate, maybe Helios as distinct from Apollo, maybe Gaea in her own right. That should be enough different paths to cover all bases.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Ok here is what I have worked up as regards to this.
Keep in mind these are basically elves using a similar template to Basic or Banestorm so all have IQ +1 and magery 0

Additionally there is another major difference
For the energy accumulation rolls a mage can either use the lowest of the path skills in the ritual (-1 per additional path after the first two) or a special Casting Mode skill.
The Casting Mode skills are named after the 9 Muses and operate using those actions.
Calliope (Epic Poetry) M/VH Use this by reciting an appropriate epic poem aloud and in clear tones.
Clio (History) M/VH Use this by reciting some history appropriate to the desired ritual.
Melpomene (Tragedy); Thalia (Comedy); Polyhymnia (Hymns, Choral Poetry) are all M/VH and special in that you cannot use them alone but need to put together a group to preform them. The caster does not participate or direct during the ritual performance but meditates and concentrates on it and possibly the audience.
Erato (Love Poetry) M/VH Use this by reciting an appropriate love poem aloud and in clear tones.
Euterpe (Song and or flute) M/VH Use this by singing or playing a musical instrument with appropriate music for the ritual. Other instruments can be used at a penalty which you can buy off as as an average technique.
Terpsichore (Dance) M/VH Use this by dancing as appropriate to the ritual.
Urania (Astronomy, Divination) M/VH Use this by drafting an appropriate star chart or horoscope and meditating on it.
Note that it is ok to be fairly liberal as to what is appropriate. It must help set the right mood more then anything and does not have to be a poem or song saying exactly waht you are trying to do. However you do get extra points for style the better the fit and Kayans love to do things with style! It is also important to note that the above are not the performance skills (which you must succeed at but typically only have to roll once per ritual). Instead they are a form of physic meditation allowing you to channel the energy while you preform.
While doing the above you may roll after every 5 minutes (seconds with the Ritual Adept advantage) and if successful get some energy (see Monster Hunters 1: Champions, p 36)

Kayans thus have additional skills to learn compared to others who use similar magic but this affords them an enhanced ability to draw energy for their rituals. Since every kayan also has at least magery 0 and this is the most common magic system they use they also are often able to draw from others using larger ceremonial rituals.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Honestly? Becasue I have a hard time coming up with enough good rituals for each one.
I may use other Gods, so far only Mneysomne (Memory and mind) is a definite and the 5 Chinese elements. Already that makes them pretty broad, not sure to leave it that way or further subdivide it. 6 paths vs. the default 9 but a few things are missing like Undead, Chance and Crossroads.
So need to decide do I make this more powerful and flexible or leave it more nature and element based.
I also considered making the casting modes M/H instead of M/VH like a path which would give them an effective +1. They get a possible discount on some spells using multiple paths but also have to buy a separate skill and the performance skill as well. And make a roll at it and do some extra prep work.
In particular setting up a play would be a lot of work and I suspect only done for mass magic of some kind.

Oh since were discusing alternate paths....
For comparision
Paths:
RPM
Body, Chance, Crossroads, Energy, Magic, Matter, Mind, Spirit, Undead.
Vampire Think of the VtM Discipline system replaced by RPM with the following paths.
Bacchus, Bala, Deimos, Fenris, Juno, Leto, Lilith, Orion, Poseidon, Proteus, Set
Kaya
Earth, Fire, Memory, Metal, Water, Wood
Note that the elements have symbolic matches as well its not just the actual element.

Gnomes use a system called Power tapping which I have yet to work out all the details but their gem magic is going to use RPM, Symbol magic or some combination. Plus modular abilities.
I think this will cover all the variant RPM systems in the world, leaving another dozen or more other systems. I like the kitchen sink approach :)

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

!

In a system where you have a "Path of the Muses" with at least ONE ritual for each muse, minimum nine rituals each with a clear theme, you'd have too much trouble coming up with the rituals?

I'll bet the forum could help.

EDIT: Off the top of my head:

Calliope (epic poetry): Heroic Attribute - confers some quality of a legendary hero upon the subject
Clio (history): Doomed to Repeat It - subject has a destiny based on an historical event
Melpomene (tragedy): Tragic Flaw - reduces the chance of self control for the subject's disadvantages
Thalia (comedy): Comedy of Error - the subject suffers effects that are like the Serendipity advantage, but reversed
Erato (lyric and love poetry): Personal Meaning - effectively emotion control as subject relates to a poem
Polyhymnia (choral poetry): Siren Song - subject is Awed.
Euterpe (flute playing): Birdsong - caster can address and control birds
Terpsichore (dance): Dancing Curse - subject dances irresistably into exhaustion and maybe death
Urania (astronomy): Astrological Divination - the caster gains knowledge of the present or future from heavenly portents, especially about the destinies of heroes, kings, and nations

That's nine rituals, a respectable quantity, thematically united by the muses and yet as diverse as book magic spells might be. A devotée of Urania in particular would buy up her corresponding technique and be known as a diviner, not so much as an emotion controller.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Some other suggestions that occur to me (not that there's any of these that's not good!):

Calliope: Heroic Resolve: Rebuilds the morale of a group of adventurers by reminding them of the difficulties some past hero faced and overcame (see for example Sam reminding Frodo of Beren's quest for a silmaril when they were in the passes of Mordor)
Clio: True History: Grants the benefits of Psychometry with respect to an object or document
Erato: Cupid's Dart: Makes the target susceptible to passionate love for the next person they see (probably should be limited to their actual sexual orientation)—as a mechanic, perhaps not outright mind control but a +8 reaction modifier
Terpsichore: Dancer's Grace: Enhances the target's DX

Bill Stoddard

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Been thinking about this and several of your suggestions for rituals are very nice. And there definitely is room for some, question was was there enough for a whole path? And was that the way to go to get the feeling I wanted and make the Kayan way look and feel different in play then the other systems.

I really like using the Muses as modes.
However adding them as Paths is also good.
Something that occurs to me is I can do both and it actually is not less of a balance then the mode issue itself.
The Path skill is what you use to make your energy roll in RAW so for that path it determines the rituals and the energy you get. So a Muse being a path and a mode is no net change for the one path. Well except the modes are typically harder to use then just concentrating.

Since I want to make them modes I lose nothing by also making them paths.
Adding 9 paths is a lot but no one has to take them all and each is fairly limited compared to many of the paths from Monster Hunters 1: Champions.

This also settles the issue of keeping them M/VH as now they definitely need to be.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Either of you guys mind if I write up sample rituals using your ideas and putting them in the notes? Credited as Geff and Bill Stoddard?

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Please use "William H. Stoddard," as that's the form of my name I use on my books. Other than that, go for it! Glad to have been helpful.

Bill Stoddard

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Thank you and saved to my note book.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

You're welcome to use my initials or my name, Geoffrey E. Fagan.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Thank you and added.
I am hoping to get a GURPS database up and online and will post them there. Already in the database as a local file. I just need to reconfigure it for a website. And buy a domain.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Coming in really late on this.

Basically, the magic of the Muses is an elaborate “bardic magic” system, and you should think of the spells they can cast and the role they play in the setting in that light. In the setting, they’d probably be entertainers, storytellers (and oral record-keepers?), and advisors.

Clio and Urania give you a past-and-future arrangent, with Clio having postcognitive abilities (good for finding skeletons in peoples’s closets; but mainly “calling on the past to inform the present”) while Urania lets you read peoples’ destinies.

Melpomene and Thalia are another pair; I’d draw on the contrast between them, with “comedy” being more about light-hearted/uplifting (vs. “tragedy”’s morbid and depressing) than it is about being humorous. Melpomene would feature curses while Thalia features blessings.

Euterpe, I figure, would be a master of sound, amplifying and/or directing it and/or modifying it. I’d similarly make Terpsichore a master of motion, with telekinetic-style effects — a bit like Bending, but without the elemental associations. I could see a Dancer enacting a “Walk on Air” spell (or, more accurately, “Dance on Air”), and/or incorporating effects akin to Light Walk and Lizard Climb, letting them dance on any surface as if it was solid ground.

Polyhymnia? Spirit magic: the hymns this Muse is associated with are known primarily for their religious characteristics; so making her magic involve summoning friendly spirits and warding against hostile ones strikes me as being quite appropriate.

Erato, meanwhile, would deal with manipulating emotions, inciting or soothing the audience.

Finally, Calliope. I’m not quite sure what to do with Calliope, though I’m thinking some sort of “power of legend” that lets the subject replicate feats from the epics, so long as the situation resembles in some way the circumstances in which the feat took place in the epics. Another possibility is illusion magic, e.g., granting the audience visions of the epic being told.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Melpomene could be about performance art. :)

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

Your ideas seem similar to what I was thinking, particularly with the pairs. I would build them as a pair of paths where the difference is what counts as lesser and greater are different. For example, history is crossroads (time). time effects can accomplish more and still be lesser, while spacial effects are almost always greater.

Astronomy and History are a pair: Crossroads (space) and Crossroads (time).
Erato and Polyhymnia are a pair: Erato is concerned with the force of life, and Polyhymnia is concerned with intelligence and harmony. This isn't quite the path's of body and mind, though the comparison is apt. Erato is about the force of life, not its matter, and includes many emotions and instincts, while Polyhymnia is about intelligence and patterns of all sorts and includes communication.
Melpomene and Thalia are a pair: Blessings and cursings. While this is a narrow field of magic, it is also an incredibly useful one.
Euterpe and Terpsichore together form the path of energy. Euterpe is not limited to sound but is master of all forms of energy perceived by the senses, particularly light. Terpsichore is over motion.

Path of Magic. Colliope is the head of the muses, and concerns herself with the dealings between the higher forces of the world.

Re: How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic
 

I think a more apt way to describe the Erato/Polyhymnia pair would be to split the Path of the Mind between the cerebral and the visceral (or thinking vs. feeling). So:

Clio and Urania have Crossroads (time and space)
Polyhymnia and Erato have Mind (cerebral and visceral)
Thalia and Melpolmene have Chance (blessings and curses)
Euterpe and Terpsichore have Energy (illusions and motion)
Calliope has Magic.

Not covered in the above are Body, Matter, Spirits, and the Undead; also not covered are such things as Energy (fire and lightning). Which is fine; bardic magic doesn’t need to cover everything.