[Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy when judging approachability? What if your Empathy is skill based?

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

I don't understand the meaning of "your Empathy is skill based." Other than that, by the RAW, the answer would be no, you can't, since Empathy is neither Per-based nor a skill, but I don't see any obvious problems if you allow it as a house rule.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

Some variants of Empathy require you to use a skill, rather than just roll against IQ. For example, the variant in Psionic Powers.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

Switching from an attribute roll to a hard skill roll is a 0% enhancement. See "Skills for Everyone" in Powers.

It can be both Per-based and/or a skill:

Empathy (Based on Per +20%; Skill-Based +0%) [18] + Empathy (Per/Hard) Default Per-6


I'm not sure why it would need to be based on Per since empathy uses IQ when judging approachability.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

As I said, if you want to houserule it, I don't see any obvious harm in it.

On the other hand—since when is Empathy a skill? My understanding is that you need to pick out one of the existing skills; so, for example, you might roll vs. Per-based Sex Appeal or Per-based Merchant.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

I alread told you, "Skills for Everyone" in Powers [p. 162]. I even gave you an Example from the book:

See there's the "Healing" skill.

I think your understanding could do with reviewing "Skills for Everyone" in Powers.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

Probably. I haven't had occasion to look at Powers in a year and a half.

The other thing I would say, though, is that Social Engineering is explicitly about things that people do with social skills. It's not mainly intended to discuss powers. I made an exception for Empathy, in quite a few places, because Empathy (a) is often a simple advantage rather than a power, (b) even as a power, is used mainly to boost social interaction, and (c) is a suitable model for what can be done with Body Language under the right conditions. Going into the domain of defining an actual psionic power with a list of modifiers is really getting out of the territory of Social Engineering. The option of an influence power is noted briefly on p. 18, and Empathy is listed as a suitable advantage there.

If someone writes a book on social superpowers, the kind of thing you're describing would make sense to put in there. In the meantime, I'll stand by saying that it's not part of the RAW in Social Engineering, but that I don't see any harm in your houseruling to include it.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

I haven't suggested anything about turning empathy into a power.

I didn't define it as either psionic or a power.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

You did, actually. "Skills for Everyone" is explicitly an option for advantages/abilities which are part of a power. It's one of the many "special effect" options available that the GM may choose to apply to a power. Other examples include penalties for multiple feats, power defenses, and so on.

All of these options are available on a power-by-power basis. They are never intended to be applied to wild advantages. So if you're discussing Empathy with a power skill (via Skills for Everyone), then you're talking about turning it into part of a power.

If Empathy isn't part of a power, then it's activated with a simple IQ roll. And that's what Bill's talking about.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

I've said, I think, three times now that if you want to house rule it, I don't see any harm in your doing so. What part of Yes, go ahead are you having trouble with?

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

<MOD>

Guys, if you want to start a fight, take it to PM. And, "You're trying to start a fight with me!" "No, you are!' counts as starting something.

Bill and NDD: You're starting to get overheated, and at this point you're just repeating yourselves. Please let this sub-discussion drop.

Bill and Figleaf23: I've deleted the posts of this argument, because it had no relevance to the thread.

Everyone: If your post isn't about using Cutting Out with Empathy, make it elsewhere. Thanks.

</MOD>

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

It is not clear to me why or how a distinction can be made between parts of RAW in that fashion. It would seem to have the effect of putting up a surprising divider between where Powers and SE can be used in combination.

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

If I may step in as an editor for a moment . . .

First: There is no such divider. Social Engineering is in no way incompatible with Powers. It just happens to more-or-less ignore Powers, because the focus of the book is very explicitly on realistic social interaction. (And there's nothing realistic about super-powers.)

Second: As for Cutting Out and Empathy, I've just now had time to sit down and read the rules carefully. And I would have to say that yes, the rules strongly imply that you can buy the Cutting Out technique for use with Empathy. Cutting Out is simply a penalized approachability roll, and the rules for approachability state that "Empathy allows an IQ roll for this purpose in place of any skill." Thus, if you have Empathy, it's reasonable to allow Cutting Out to default to IQ-4, with a maximum cap of IQ.

Whether Empathy requires a skill, and whether it uses IQ or Per, are both red herrings. The former doesn't affect techniques, as a technique can always be based on an attribute -- and the latter is a non-issue because the GM can always choose to float rolls to other attributes.

Third: We're here to have discussions about GURPS, not arguments over who's right and wrong. There is no "right" and "wrong" in an RPG; there's only what works best for your group. If you find yourself on this forum debating your stance and trying to prove your point, please step away from the forums for a while and calm down. (This is a general comment, not directed at one specific person.)

Re: [Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?
 

Yep, the instant you put in a skill to base it off you made it a power as defined in the book. Could be magic or psi (which I think you used as an example) but while it may be possible to give it a skill roll and not call it a power...
A) Almost anyone would assume your intending it to be a power since that's the way the skill substitution goes.
B) I cant think of a situation where you would have empathy with a skill substitution and it NOT be a power. Probably one out there but science, magical and psi all seem to be power special effects that would fit certain situations.
EDIT( Saw the mod note) My tone might have come across adversarial and even if normally it wouldn't be perceived that way I think today there is enough going on that people are more sensitive. So I was supporting the point of view that what you described was changing it to a power rather then making an attack.
Mind I already think of Empathy as kind of a power but can see a marginal set of situations where its not really subconscious psi or hyper analysis or something else.
But it wont take much to push it into the realm of a full blown power becasue it already (in my mind) is so darn close.