How to stat D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapn spells in GURPS?
 

Hi all.

I'm prepping to DM a group of D&Ders in GURPS, since I've come to love the system. To make it easier for them, I'm converting some 'classic' D&D spells for them to feel more comfortable with. The only ones I'm having trouble with are the Clerical spells of Prayer and Spiritual Weapon. What I've come up with so far is:

Prayer (cleric spell only)
probably requires Power Investiture 2 or 3
Area spell
Duration: 1 minute?
Cost: 2? (for a 1 hex, so 4 for 2 hex, etc.) Cannot be maintained.
Time to cast: 2 rounds?

To avoid the whole mess of being Resisted, I'm limiting the effects to:

This spell affects all allies within the area by adding +1 to all attack skill rolls with weapons, and +1 on all damage rolls with weapons.

Sooo...how does that sound? Is the cost reasonable for what the spell accomplishes? Too much? Too little?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

As for the Spiritual Weapon spell-yoicks! I can't even begin to decide how it would work in GURPS! Any ideas? ::sheepish grin::


Thanks for any help!

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Been a long time (almost 30 years) since i played D&D, so what does Spiritual Weapon do?
Imbuements and Divine Favor are kind of nice things to look at for Clerics.
The basic magic system is nice but makes them too similar to mages if you use that for spells for both groups.

Stats for D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapon spells in GURPS?
 

Basically, the spell gives the caster his deity's favored weapon as an independent, ranged attack-at the caster's ability. So if the god's favored weapon was a mace, and the cleric had Mace-12, the spell would invoke a vaguely spectral 'mace' that would attack the chosen target at that skill level for the duration of the spell. The cleric could take a 'concentrate' round to move the spell to new target...

I'll have to look at imbuements to see if they can help with Prayer...

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Spiritual Weapon should probably be comparable in energy cost to Poltergeist or Winged Knife, its closest GURPS counterparts.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Ok then Try Distant Blow M p144 or go for a non enchantment version of Dancing Weapon. But Distant Blow should be close enough for you I think.

Re: Stats for D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapon spells in GURPS?
 

First, it is not a good idea to conver the mechanics from one system to another. Specially in D&D, the mechanics are often slightly (or completelly) abstract, and GURPS is a concrete system. Convert the concept, ditch the flavour.

As for prayer, that looks like either Grace and Might, Grace and Orichalcum Edge (Pyramid #3/35), or Bless. Bless is probably the closest you can get to the original spirit of the idea. It's more limited than bless, since it doesn't last until triggered, but instead lasts for a short duration, and probably shouldn't have the finish early to save your bacon aspect, but it can affect the caster, so you could have it at base cost 8 or so.
I hear that someone took Divine Favor, adapted it to Dungeon Fantasy, and wrote a Pyramid article on it...
Option 1: Distant Blow spell
Option 2: Project Blow Imbuement
Option 3: Build it with Innate Attack, ST based

In all cases, you might need extra traits to make it independent.

Re: Stats for D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapon spells in GURPS?
 

I'm going to go further and try to argue against converting at all. I understand that this is a thread about converting D&D spells to GURPS but, respectfully, in regards to the intent of the original poster, I think it might be a bad idea.

I remember doing the same thing once for a group, and I so successfully converted D&D into GURPS that, at the end of the experience, the group said "Well, GURPS doesn't do anything that D&D doesn't do, so we don't see why we should change systems," and went back to D&D. I've learned since then that if someone is open to a new system, they often want to see what the new system actually does, how it's different, how it stacks up, and so on.

If they're not actually open to a new system, they're not going to care how much effort you put into it, because they've already made their decision and they're just going to suffer through your session and declare it a failure anyway, so conversion is pointless for them too.

What you do want to do is show them that they can play their favorite genres in GURPS. Dungeon Fantasy is great for this, because it's about going into dungeons, beating up monsters and taking their stuff, but unlike D&D it doesn't involve rigid classes or the mage-as-artillery concept or abstract war-gamey mechanics.

So I say showcase its strengths and how its different and let them judge it honestly. Don't file off the serial numbers and present them "D&D with 3d6 instead of a d20."

(This is not an argument against converting anything from D&D, just against trying to sell D&D-types on GURPS by making GURPS look as much like D&D as you can).

Re: Stats for D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapon spells in GURPS?
 

I sometimes convert settings (Since GURPS doesn't offer much in the way of settings) and even if I try to keep the conversion at the conceptual level (I prefer minimalistic conversions that only convert what appears in the vignetes and backstory of the setting) sometimes you need to convert some mechanical aspects that are very ingrained in the fluff. What I usually do is search for the nearest GURPS equivalent, and only if it doesn't exist, create something.

Also, I've found that everything works best is you gloss over the mechanical details of the other systems when converting. Most of the time, if they're justified, they're justified Ex Post Facto, meaning that I've seen the fluff twisted into a pretzell because it must accomodate for the neat mechanical idea. In those cases, I apply Occam's Razor...

Re: Stats for D&D Prayer & Spiritual Weapon spells in GURPS?
 

Well, I also happen to think converting settings is a bad idea, but I hope that wasn't what came across in my post as I feel it's off-topic. I'm not trying to say that a D&Dish world, or even Forgotten Realms, is a bad place for new GURPSers who're used to D&D to start, even though I wouldn't do that. I'm trying to say that you should let the GURPS mechanics speak for themselves, and that includes using relatively generic stuff like (in my opinion) GURPS magic*

I do very much agree with your approach, though, Kuroshima. Were I to convert, I would do just what you do.

*I must admit, though, given the many-faceted approach to magic that GURPS has, this is a pretty weak argument. Think of it as a general philosophy: "Let GURPS be GURPS." It's arguable that GURPS can still be GURPS with combat-oriented vancian magic in it, of course.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Cut Spiritual Weapon back to its basic fluff - it conjures a magic weapon that chases one of your foes around on the battlefield and attacks him. It can attack spirits, and has no "body" to be the victim of attacks.

Call it a variation/upgrade on Create Warrior - as a wizard spell it probably has prerequisites like Affect Spirits, and one of Create Warrior or Dancing Object or (Animation and Grace).

It creates a "haunted", flying weapon that has the stats from Create Warrior (ST 12, skill 16 etc), but you can only attack the weapon itself (see the weapon breaking rules from Basic Set). It can attack spirits as per Affect Spirits. 1 second to cast, 10 second duration, 6 to cast, 4 to maintain. It has a much shorter duration and a more expensive startup cost, but its much faster to cast than Create Warrior, comes with its own weapon, doesn't need armor, and can attack spirits.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

I think converting a setting can work very well as long as you keep to the spirit of the things you are converting.

D&D offers, for example, spells that deal only a little bit of damage, but can be cast very quickly. You should make a couple of those to give players more options à la Magic Missile, Burning Hands etc. The clerical party buffs you mention are another thing that's missing in GURPS. Those can be restricted by only giving them to divine casters. Another thing are good (but not complete as in GURPS Resist Fire) protection spells. Making a non-variable Magic Armor spell that gives DR 2 and cost two energy per minute goes a long way of placating old Dungeons & Dragons expectations. Whatever you do don't go to closely into D&D details.

Having said that I agree with the other posters that getting a whole group of D&D fans convert to GURPS by giving them basically GURPS D&D is probably problematic. If there are some among them who have been chafing at D&D's restrictions this might work, but if they are comfortable with their system and you are the driving factor for converting then it would probably better to try something D&D can't do like modern day, hard SF or super heroes.

I am currently GMing a GURPS Forgotten Realms group that has two avid D&D players and they're fine with it, although there are some things they don't like (mainly combat length, relatively low attributes and bad defaults). It works fine, though, since there are other players who would never play D&D and some who just don't care.

I think the easiest way to please the D&D crowd is to give them a lot of options that are in tune with the campaign world you're playing in and can only be gained by fulfilling some prerequisites. D&D players in general love planning out their characters in advance. Another way to tempt them might be to play a "traditional" fantasy game, but with really in-depth character backgrounds and motivations which can all be expressed in GURPS terms.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Well, when I said I convert settings, I was not only speaking about settings from other RPGs. I was also considering settings from books. Anyway, my "conversions" will deviate from the source material when I think the source material is nonsensical (cue in many post CCG metaplot in L5R), where it doesn't fit GURPS rules cleanly (Cue in Vancian Magic), and where it fits my whim, so you could say that the setting is "inspired by" the original, instead of "converted from" it.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

The one spell in D&D that gives me a hard time is, believe it or not, Magic Missile. I've come up with a decent variant which I think works, bit I'm unsure of two bits: Spell College, and prerequisite count.

Magic Missile (IQ/H)
This spell is a basic offensive combat spell, creating a projectile that does 1d cr damage per point of energy invested in it. Additional projectiles can be created - up to a total of five - at a -3 skill penalty per projectile. (Roll vs Innate Attack (Projectile) to hit.)
Energy Cost: 1 per 1d cr damage, up to your Magery level (normally 3).
Time to Cast: 1 second per projectile.
Duration: Instant.

Item
1) Staff or wand. 250 energy to create, only usable by mages. This can only fire one projectile at a time.
2) Jewelry. 500 energy to create, always fires two projectiles at 3d cr each.

Prereq count should be low, IMO. I thought about making this an Air College spell, as I always pictured the missile being 'hard air'.

Thoughts?

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

It's been a "Force" effect since third edition, so for those it's probably a Movement college spell in GURPS. Or a Metamagic spell, if you go with the "Shooting people with raw magic" idea.

With 3e, one of the great benefits of Magic Missile being a Force effect is that it can be used on Ethereal creatures (more or less GURPS Insubstantial). The fact that you don't roll to hit, they "just hit" is also pretty darn nice - but of course you don't roll to hit with almost any spell in 3e.

I'd go with 1d-1 but add a note that it can be used on Insubstantial creatures at no penalty to hit...

Or I'd go all D&D 4th edition and say they're automatically-hitting, armor bypassing little "pew pews" that only do 2 or 3 HP each (GURPS scale - about 1/5th starting HPs).

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

DF 11 has a Magic Missile-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off Power Up for Wizards.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Thanks for the help everyone! As I worked thru all the advice, I realized that GURPS doesn't have "area benefit" spells (like D&D Prayer). And because of that, I agree it would be a bad idea to try to directly convert it.

I'm still gonna work on Spiritual Weapon, though (thanks for the start Emily!); I think any group healer deserves this kind of attack to enjoy melees more.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Well, GURPS has Bravery as an "area benefit" spell. Dungeon Fantasy I does have it as a spell for Power Investiture Level 1 and it's probably the closest RAW fit for D&D Bless. Given that this one gives a 15-point advantage (with a side-effect to be sure) for a one hour duration and a base cost of 2 I wouldn't rule out some similar spells for other buffs. You just have to make sure the area version is balanced with the regular buffs (Vigor, Wisdom, Armor etc.)

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

I've felt for a while that area "buffs" are an interesting blind spot in GURPS Magic. There are a few - Bravery is one, but there's also Protect Animal - which is an absolutely fabulous spell if only your PCs were bunny rabbits ;)

Spells like Scrywall, Pentagram, and Mystic Myst are also arguably area beneficial - they're not like "Mass Bulls Strength" but they're still present.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

What do you think Shapeshift Others is for?

"Did you find that adventuring party I sent you to ambush?"
"No m'lord. Only a wizard and a bunch of dire-bears."
"I see. And where are the rest of your men?"
"Um, dire-bears..."

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Technically, area buffs exist. Check in Pyramid #3/4: Magic on the Battlefield the secret spells of The Society of Siege Sorcerers by Sean Punch, with Greater Deflect Energy (Area Deflect Energy), Greater Deflect Missle (Area Deflect Missle) and Mass Resist (Effect) (Provides Resist <something> as an area effect, where something is Acit, Fire, etc etc. Not a single spell, it's a class of spells). They show how to take a spell, and make a Mass version. In my games, I allow player to suggest mass spells, and then they can purchase them as secret spells, via purchase of a suitable magic perk.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Neat, had that one filed away under campaign template mentally. Goes to show what you can miss when you are not currently interested in an aspect of the game.

Concerning that Mass Resist doesn't it look awfully cheap even for a secret spell? For 4 energy you can make 7 people immune to fire for a minute. Casting time of four seconds would be a bit long for combat casting, but for more premeditated violence (and arson) it is really cheap. Part of that problem is certainly the fact that Resist Fire is already awfully cheap, but just transferring this to let's say Vigor and the like would be a bit munchkinny in my opinion.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

The problem is that energy reductions apply to the new total, not to the individual total. This makes maintenance very hard, reducing the practicality of the spell. This, compounded with the fact that it's hard to cast in media res, keeps it balanced in my experience.

Example: Mage knows Resist Fire-15 or more, allowing him to give the first level of protection to someone and maintain it for free. He can protect his 5 man party all day, and the only thing he will suffer, is -5 to all other spells. He pays 1x5=5 energy to do so. Now, with Mass Resist Fire, he can protect the same party for 3 energy, but it must come all at once, and he would need 4 seconds to do so. He would have to pay 1 energy/minute to keep it active, meaning that he can't have it up permanently. This means that he can't cast it in combat, and he can't have it up permanently, so it's only for situations where the caster knows such spell will be necessary, and what he gets is a drastic reduction in the number of active spells, in exchange for taking a secret spell perk, and knowing a different spell that does the same as the spell he already knows.

If he had Skill 20, he would be able to afford the second level of protection via single target Resist Fire as a permanent effect, or the first level of the first level for a 2 yard radius as a permanent effect.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Out of combat, you can already rest/tap external sources/whatever to recover between/after castings, and high skill reduces FP spent on casting and maintenance on a per person basis, which has a stacking benefit. It's already a cheap spell to cast on a single subject (or if you prefer, Vitality +1 or something), you're just paying a little in character points to cover the "oh hey only counts as one spell on" factor... in exchange for the risk of "Oh hey, can be dispelled on everyone as only one spell!" factor.

You could buy the lack of penalties separately as a series of perks for the base spell and skip the Secret Spell issue entirely - AND keep the resistance to spell purging.

Re: Stats for D&D spells in a Fantasy game?
 

Compare: Secret Spell [1] plus at least point in the new spell [1] vs. 2 points in Reduced Footprint [2] - the Reduced Footprint character can have 3 Resist [Whatever] effects active for a -1 penalty, and if his one-point level is 15+ (endemic amongst the kinds of people who need Greater Resist [whatever] - AKA adventurers) then he can maintain all three copies indefinitely. Which means he can pre-cast and rest somewhere comfortable while recovering, and go into things perfectly fresh.

The Secret Spell character has buffed 4 extra people, but is maintaining for 1 FP/Minute, and can have the whole house of cards taken down by only one dispel-type effect. This wizard can't rest - he'll be leaking FP faster than he can recover it.

Replace with whatever spell you like that costs 2-and-half-to-maintain - if Vigor or Might are fair at their current costs, they're fair this way too.