[Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Hello,

I'm currently rolling up a couple of quick test characters and equipping them in order to gather some experience before hopefully starting a real game.

I decided to have a battle between a very strong character Walter der Starke (ST:14 DX:10 IQ:10 HT:12) and a weaker but more skilled character Thomas der Flinke(ST: 10 DX:13 IQ:11 HT:11).

Walter was equipped with a two handed Greatsword and Heavy Plate armor as well as a greathelm. Effectively giving him DR 7 on all limbs, the head and the torso (hands were DR 5)

Thomas was equipped with a longsword and a medium shield (DB 2) as well as basic leather armor.

Walter had a good sword skill at 13 while Thomas had an excellent sword skill of 16 and high shield skill of 14.

Walter had trouble getting past Thomas' active defences but Thomas couldn't do any damage (poor choice of weapon perhaps against such a heavily armored foe.)

In the end Walter kept All out attacking(double) to try and beat down Thomas' defenses and when Thomas' blows connected his 1d+2 cut roll was quite puny. He coudn't target any chinks in the armor (due to his weapon lacking an impaling attack) and so opted to target the neck most of the time to try and squeeze in extra damage (due to his high skill he was sucessful quite often).

Now I realize Heavy armor is supposed to be effective but are there any options Thomas could have taken to maximize his damage? Or was repeatedly attacking Walter's limbs / neck the best course of action, hoping to wear down the giant over time?

It should be mentioned Walter had High Pain Threshold and was immune to shock penalties.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Aside from using a proper weapon to begin with (at the least, a thrusting broadsword—but against an opponent like that, a mace or pick would probably be more appropriate), there are a few things Thomas could have tried.

1) Disarming.

2) Grappling. This would be tough because of his medium shield, but if an opponent is All-Out Attacking and forfeiting his defenses, he automatically loses quick contests related to grapples. If Thomas has good Wrestling or Judo skill, he could use something like AoA (Double) or Telegraphic Rapid Strike for a grab and takedown. Damaging? No. But it does put Thomas is a better position, and he may be able to follow it up with a Pin.

3) By the same token, Sweep.

4) The heaviest gloves and boots in the Basic Set have DR 5 and 4, respectively. If I'm Thomas, that's what I'm swinging for every time. Thomas's best bet (I believe) is to cripple one of Walter's extremities, effectively disabling his opponent without having to break through the really heavy stuff.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Don't forget Shield Rush. Someone with a Medium or Large shield has a very good chance of knocking down someone with no shield.

A Longsword can thrust for imp. Do you mean a Broadsword? The vast majority of historical one handed swords, and almost all of those used in cultures with full suits of armour, had enough of a tip to do imp damage. Think of the Thrusting Broadsword and Thrusting Greatsword as defaults, and the Broadsword and Greatsword as what you give fighters from a few cultures without much armour. (The names are a bit of legacy code from the days of Man to Man).

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

* Optional Rule: Extra Effort for +2 damage. This costs 1 FP so it's not available very often ... But probably worth it when you see the other one doing an AoA.
* Thomas has a 9% crit chance at skill 16. That might help to get good stuff from the critical hit table, but only in a long, drawn out fight as the critical hit table isn't that great ...
* Retreating gives Thomas at least Block 15, so a somewhat long fight (10-20 rounds at least) is to be expected.
* In tactical combat there might be a way to do something with mobility (hit&run), not sure.

Dunno, it's a difficult fight for both sides ...
Ts

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Don't forget about extra effort! It can give a huge bonus when the taget opens themself up. at 1d+4, he can punch through those gloves 5/6 of the time, and cripple the hand in possibly a single blow (although if using Edge protection from LT2, it will only be crush damage).

Also in MA:Gladiators, there's rules for placing your shield side forward, which would improve blocks to 16 (parry would drop one though), but give a critical defense roll on a 6 or less.

Finally, vs. an opponent using AoA, respond with telegraphic attacks... thus completely negating the -4 penalty to hit hands or feet, and preseving your high critical hit percent.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Just some simple statistics:
Walter doing normal attacks/defenses all the time vs. Thomas doing normal attacks/defenses to the neck (DR5) all the time, until someone becomes unconscious (or dead).
Thomas wins only 23% of the time according to my simple simulator ... But that's a lot better for Thomas than trying to hit the torso normally, because then he wins like 0.02% of the time ... (Since he can't do damage, that's somewhat obvious.)

Mind you, no Extra Effort or other options. I guess extra options would mostly favor Thomas, as Walter doesn't really benefit from more damage or crippling ... Though he can increase his hit chance with a -1 deceptive attack against Thomas way too high defenses.

Oh, an regarding Telegraphic Attack: It says something explicitly about not increasing the chance of critical hits. Not sure though how this applies when it balances out a (hit location) modifier.

Ts

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I assume it means you add in the TA last, and your critical chance is whatever you had without the Telegraphic Attack, but with all other modifiers.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

This seems to be it. I just checked Martial Arts.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

If he has rigid armor, he has chinks sitting in it. Target them.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

How much encumbrance is Walter carrying? If he's fighting all-out in heavy armor, shouldn't he be worn out pretty soon?

(Asking as a complete GURPS newbie/collector...)

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I suggest using a heavy weapon, a knight with heavy armor is kinda like a soldier with kevlar, and a broadsword is kinda like a pistol, so... you're using the wrong weapon.
But, if you are against a weapon with plate and only have a sword, then, use AOA(strong), grappling, aim for the chinks, or eyes, evaluate, feint etc...

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

The OP already mentioned that without an imp attack, targetting chinks is not an option (according to Basic Set at least, not sure what MA says).

FP loss from fights is only calculated after the fight. Adrenaline and all that, I guess. FP loss is 1+Encumbrance or something like that. The length of the fight doesn't matter unless the fight takes minues, which is unlikely, or less than 10s in which case there seems to be no FP cost (which can actually happen in a 1-on-1 fight like this).

So, I guess the options mentioned above are still the best for Thomas. Or running away and buying a better weapon. ;)

Ts

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Okay thanks guys. Guess I was right about most things in basic (i.e. Heavy armor is REALLY effective.)

Thomas basically needs a better weapon or / and needs to try to disarm Walter.

This seems realistic enough it just sort of need getting used to especially when coming froma more "cinematic" ruleset. (We know what I mean ;) )

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

It is if you don't have the means to defeat it, yes. But even so...if anything, it may be a bit weak.

ST 10 is quite weak for a melee fighter, and a broadsword is an pretty weak weapon too (especially the non-thrusting version). If he had ST 12 he'd be a threat to the armored guy, especially if he had a higher-quality sword or an unbalanced weapon.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

In a real fight he wouldn't use a single-handed sword at all unless all of his other weapons were lost or broken. Most fighters had some kind of pole arm - a spear at the very least. His weapon of choice is handy against unarmoured peasants (or in an artificial situation like a duel) but that's about all.

When two armoured people fought they concentrated on grapples and targeting gaps and joints. It is a waste of an attack to aim for the armour. As has been said, Shield Bash is handy too. This should be high on the list for any initial attack.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I think I may be forgetting some fairly integral rule regarding Shield Bash, so can someone refresh my memory? What is it about Shield Bash that makes it a good option in this situation?

My understanding:

1) A shield bash will do thr-1 cr (or thr cr, for an embossed shield)
2) In order to cause knockback, the attacker has to do [Opponent's ST-2] Crushing damage
3) Walter has ST 14, so Thomas would have to do 12 damage with a thr-1 attack to trigger knockback.
4) Thomas can't do that much damage, even if he's ST 12.

So. What am I missing here?

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I think I mean "shield rush" rather than shield bash. It is a useful first attack agaisnt a heavily armoured foe. I think that the shield's HP rather than its DB should be incorporated into the Slam damage when doing this move.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Isn't that already approximated in the fact that shield rushes get their DB as a damage bonus?

Edit: Two posts passing in the night....

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Yeah I was editing that part. Low-Tech has a light shield and a heavy shield. Using existing slam rules the light shield does the same damage as a heavy one since they have the same DB. HP (perhaps HP/5) would be a better stat to use and would be more consistent with the rest of the slam rules.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

What about just adding the slammer's encumbrance level to his damage for a slam, since it's not just the mass of the shield but the mass of the entire person behind it?

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Makes sense.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Its not bad at first sight but it does cause some oddities and does in some ways penalize strength or high basic lift scores. A lower strength character reaches higher levels of encumbrance faster with the same load than a stronger character and would be rewarded bonus damage for his encumbrance under this system. While the strong character gets no bonus for the same gear weight or even potentially heavier gear loads because he is strong enough for it not to increase his encumbrance level.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Total weight?

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Sword and target is not the rarest of armaments ... even ignoring soldiers who also carried javelins, we see it all over 16th century Europe. I agree with you that against a man in full metal armour, someone with a target and a sword with no point can't do much ...

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

With 1d+2 cut, breaking DR 5 is going to be a challenge. Tactics are going to have to either concentrate on increasing damage or decrease effective DR.

All-out-Attacks are out, it would be suicide. An Advanced Attack, from MA would be an option. Spending FP to increase damage (extra effort) is an optional rule, but very popular and from Basic. Evaluating might be an option, if you want to hit sensitive hit locations without lowering your critical hits chance, but its probably better to just attack every turn.

Getting by armor will be tricky, specially using just the rules in Basic. Both MA and Low-Tech offer more detailed rules about chinks, gaps, joints and more realistc coverage of armor. You could even cut the armor straps to expose his bits, or impede his movements. With Basic, you'll have to hope for a critical hit. A heavier blunt weapon could inflict blunt trauma, and a pointy weapon would be even better.

Last, but not least... incapacitate your opponent. Hits to the head might knock him out, droping him, disarming him, are all alternatives. He's also heavily encumbered, so you have mobility on your side, and time. You can setup all sorts of things, chose where in the battlefield you're fighting, and try dirty tricks that require a few turns.

And, if all else fails, you can run... which is probably the wise thing to do when a lightly armored man faces a knight fully clad in iron wielding a greatsword. If you're fast enough you can go get a propper weapon and come back :-D

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

About the only thing that looks feasable to me is to try and knock the big guy off his feet with a shield bash or some other such thing.

Get him down on the ground and you have a better chance of disarming him, finding a chink, etc.

Other than that...run away and find a heavy crossbow, or something.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

That would then have to be back-calculated into HP for purposes of the slam equation, I suppose.

Hmm. Punching the numbers into a spreadsheet, it appears that, say, going from 150 to 250 pounds wouldn't make any difference at all, so if you want shields and encumbrance to make a difference, that's not the place to do it.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

something else to keep in mind the heavy armor guy has limited vision. strike the head to get him to blink and disappear into his blind spot. then stab him in the back of the thigh. you can't really armor there. or blind side him and knock him on his a** stand on his arm and stab him in the chest. Great sword fighters cannot armor their upper chest much. You need to be able to cross your arms.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Stab him with what? The whole difficulty stems from the guy only having a blunt tipped sword....

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

When you pin that guy, you can disarm him and hit with his own sword =)

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I have never seen a blunt tipped sword. Every long sword I have ever handled had a thrusting tip. And I personally know multiple sword smiths.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

It's an artifact of the Broadsword entry in GURPS being blunt tipped, even though such swords were rare.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

That's right, there is a thread about this subject with some "official answers" but I can't find it ATM.

I wonder if anyone remembers the link.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Tangentially, the actual Longsword entry (Low Tech, and possibly Martial Arts?) doesn't even have a tip-less version.

I assume the OP was terminologically careless.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Yep. When I was playing D&D I didn't know what Longsword meant historically (to be completely honest, I didn't know until I bought GURPS Martial Arts). What I pictured was what GURPS calls a thrusting broadsword. Modern video games have often continued to pass down this imprecise understanding of the term.

When I started playing GURPS (in 1991-- I was 12) I was surprised that there was no longsword entry in the Basic book.

To add to the confusion: what are called "Celtic Longswords" are thrusting Broadswords in GURPS, not longswords. Similarly, people outside of RPGs refer to Spathas as "longswords", and even Katanas as "Japanese Longswords."

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Pulling nonsense terms out of D&D just makes things worse. In the texts any sword that was larger than the side sword was called a "longsword". It could be anything from a broadsword to a two-hander. The D&D longsword is not the same weapon as that described in the fencing manuals like Talhoffer. The longsword in Martial Arts is and can be used in one hand or two. The D&D longsword seems to be nothing but a slightly longer broadsword. Its more like an older-style rapier than a true longsword.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

There are plenty of swords with a spatulate or rounded tip from the La Tene period through to the medieval period. This is what was modelled as broadsword in GURPS. The thrusting broadsword has a proper point and should be reinforced to stop it breaking off - this is why it is more expensive.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Although there was arguments that it should be thr+1 imp, not cr.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

I'd keep it simple and just give the shields described as heavy +1 to DB for shield rushes only.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

A key to the problem is that most of the terms used to describe specific types of sword are simply descriptions of how they differed from the then common sword (longsword is longer than an arming sword, broadsword is broader than a rapier), or is just how you say "sword" in the language that the sword in question originated from (gladius).

Or, of course, were labels applied long after the fact, often by people deriding their ancestors for using such awkward weapons. The Victorians were excellent at inventing "barbaric" things and pretending their predecessors invented them, in order to feel superior to them (read the section of Low Tech on torture for another set of examples).

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Or even cut, though that might produce its own weird interactions.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

How in the world would a trust with a weapon gonna produce cutting?

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Sufficiently broad, sharp but un-pointy edge at the end would do that. Imagine something shaped like an axe-head and positioned like a spear-head. Pretty sure there are weapons written up that do that, actually.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

Several thrust cutting weapons appear in GURPS Martial Arts. Most such entries represent the effects of pulling with a sharpened hook (e.g., bill, hook sword, sickle, and sodegarami) or dragging a point to deliver a tearing cut (shuriken used to claw and spear used for a Tip Slash); here, thrust damage is shorthand for insufficient chopping power to merit swing damage. A few others reflect "swung" cutting weapons that offer insufficient leverage to merit swing damage (like the combat fan and straight razor). Still, several exotic weapons (deer antlers, knife wheel, lajatang, monk's spade, slashing wheel, etc.) do true thrust cutting damage by pushing a sharpened crescent into the target. It isn't unknown.

Re: [Basic] Questions regarding Heavy Plate Armor
 

By having a broad edge on the tip? For an extreme example, look at a shovel.