Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

What is retro-SF? The system? Which system? The setting? Again, which setting?

If Hans altered some things about the 'oficial canon' on the Sword Worlds for his book, would that have been unacceptable 'fixing'? Would it have made the GURPS Traveller line a 'different genre'?

The next question, is for Hans. What, if anything, did you change about the Sword Worlds? Are there any fixes that you made to the world profiles? Did you alter anything substantial in order to make something about the setting more realistic or more plausible?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Well, that's a problem. Loren Wiseman has said that he knows, but isn't talking. Obviously it's one that leads to a different outcome of the events on 132-1116, but at least one difference goes back somewhat further. In the GTU, Strephon had decided to promote Norris to Archduke of Deneb, and done it in time for Norris to be on his way in time to arrive on Capital before 001-1117. IN the OTU Norris stayed in the Spinward Marches. At the very least, Strephon must have notified Norris. More likely there would have been at least one message cycle before that (Strephon: "Norris, I'm going to make you Archduke of Deneb. You're not going to embarrass me by refusing the honor, are you?" Norris: "Streph, Old Boy, you can't count on me." Strephon: "Be here on 001-1117, then." Norris: I'll be there with bells on!")

So depending on various assumptions, I would put the CP in 1114 or 1115.

But be that as it may, the big changes really get rolling after 132-1116. From there they spread like rings in the water. A lot of the stuff that goes on in the Marches would be pretty much the same up to around 1117, whereupon the noticeable changes would come thick and fast.

But anything prior to 1114 should be the same (at least notionally).


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Ok, ok, you're having a vastly different discussion that I thought. Apparently Traveller to you means everything and nothing, so I guess I'll bow out.

Edit: I'm sorry for the passive aggression. I was tired and getting irritated by everything. I should have simply asked for clarification of what everyone meant by Traveller.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

We asked for permission to make changes to physical part of some of the UWPs, on the grounds that there were a rather unbelievable number of unlikely worlds in the bunch. When that was refused, we went with the notion that this cluster of worlds had been a sort of terraforming laboratory for the Ancients (We decided that what excuse later authors could come up with for large clusters of unlikely worlds in other subsectors would be their problem -- we were going to use up the 'Ancient laboratory' excuse ;-)). Paul, with a LOT of help from Constantine did a magnificient job there.

Then we asked for, and received, permission to change the population levels on three worlds, Hofud, Dyrnwyn, and Durendal, on the grounds that canonical history had them playing roles on the interstellar scene that was incompatible with populations too low to be able to afford interstellar ships. After all, there's only so many times you can use "Well, there used to be many millions of them, but they had a nuclear war/was struck by a huge meteorite/swept by a world-spanning plague" explanations. (Note that we did use the nuclear war with Colada). ISTR that we also inadvertently changed one other population level (unintentionally, I mean), but I can't remember which one (I suppose I've repressed it).


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Everything and nothing? Not at all. It means the systems and the settings called 'Traveller.'

That includes, but is not limited to, the OTU of CT and MT. It also includes GURPS Trav, MongTrav, and various homebrew Traveller settings.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I think those changes to the SW sound pretty reasonable, Hans.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Thanks! Though most of my effort was to just try and have the worlds make some degree of physical sense given the random UWPs, I think I used terraforming as an excuse only as a last resort.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Getting back onto the topic at hand... here's an interesting article that may provide food for thought:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/print/1645

"The hubris involved in genetic engineering is several orders of magnitude smaller than that involved in terraforming. At least we’re good at the former, as the variety and quality of our foodstuffs and pharmaceuticals attest. Nor would we be condemning entire worlds or species to destruction. Terraforming is a battering ram, genetic engineering is a scalpel. Which one would you prefer for a delicate, complex operation — whether this is repairing a watch, performing a heart bypass or fine-tuning a new world?"

(the quote in bold also showed up at NASA's recent "100 year starship" study).

This also illustrates some more Ancient craziness - they expended a lot of effort in genetically engineering pre-human stock from Earth to various other planets, and yet they also apparently wasted a lot of time terraforming worlds? And also they didn't do much genetic engineering on themselves apparently (not sure if the introduction of "coyns" really counts, since that's a psionic thing).

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

The change point is of need fuzzy, and well prior to 1114 when the really obvious changes (Dulinor's conspiracy) is set in motion...

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I agree that it's fuzzy (Indeed, I said as much), but I don't think any current evidence necessitates putting the change point any further back than 1114 (my favorite) or even 1115. It seems pretty clear that Dulinor's conspiracy was on track (although probably already compromised) as late as when he left for Capital. There was a TNS newsbrief about some pre-paid chunks of media time that went mysteriously unused. I take that to be evidence that Dulinor's pre-planned announcements were set in motion (but scotched by secret agents after he left). It's quite possible that the first change Dulinor noticed[*] was on 132-1116.

[*] Well, he wouldn't have noticed, of course, but you know what I mean.

In any case, there are a lot of events from <whenever the CP was> to 1117 that wouldn't have been affected by the changes yet, so with a little judicious vetting, a lot of GTU material from those years are also usable as canon for the OTU. And the further you go into the past, the more sure we can be that events would have been the same in both universes.


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Dulinor, the great martyr for progressive democracy in the Third Imperium!

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Does anyone remember that this topic is about TERRAFORMING?

If you want to argue about divergence points of the GT setting, can you please start another thread?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Then I say that the pcs are after a rumored Ancient Genesis device to terraform a world in a useful jump point nexus. The profits would be massive.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

IN the Imperium setting, I recall reading that terraforming is one of the things that research stations play around with. The indications were that the Imperium wasn't pursuing it seriously on a large scale. But then the Imperium has little reason to when interstellar travel is so much cheaper a way to expand and life bearing planets are so common and easily reached. A culture that pursued terraforming without Ancient technology would probably be very rich, and very insular, quite probably lacking a frontier not already occupied by interstellar-capable cultures. However, one end-game scenario I could see for the Imperium is "As it moves into the next tech level the ruling class becomes obsessed with devoting it's resources into massive terraforming projects in the core while the frontiers are steadily abandoned and turned into independent buffer states."

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Yeah, Megatraveller and TNE were filled with progressive democracy...

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

There would have been, if Dulinor had prevailed. In between moping around the apartment listening to ancient albums of The Cure and writing soulful poetry about his ex -girlfriend, the Archduke liked to tinker with political reform. When he wasn't practicising his marksmanship, that is.

In all seriousness, the MT write up actually does describe him as a progressive figure, someone who wants more 'democracy' in the Third Imperium and greater Imperial involvement in the development of member worlds for the benefit of the citizens.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Which wouldn't work both because of the time lag and the necessity of making allowance for pariochial rulers who have de facto control over their people's votes whatever the Imperium says about the matter. The best that can be done along that line is representation from each planet and the fief system probably does that reasonably well.

What could be done is to have an electoral seneschal in the Imperial Baron's household chosen by the local world.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Don't get me wrong.

(serious hat now firmly in place)

Dulinor wasn't just a cold-blooded murderer or an ambitious traitor- he was one of that particularly horrid breed of criminals: the self-righteous revolutionary zealot. He was one of those Jacobin-types who beleives in 'the Rights of Man' but not the right of any one man. He had a grand scheme to radically alter society by force, consequences be damned.. Those who stood his his way had to be eliminated for the good of 'The People of the Imperium.' We've seen this kind of evil before.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Ah! The mystery is solved. We have someone with a motive. How did you arrange his death?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Well, I travelled back in time to the early 90s and jumped on the BBSs for Traveller fans. I posted many flames, which produced a mighty firestorm of hatred for Dulinor and all his vile works of dickitude.

Years later, my carefully wrought campaign of psychological warfare paid off when Loren Weisman killed Dulinor aboard his shuttle via the dread Ancient device known as...The Retcon of Almighty Fiat.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

That doesn't mean he can actually do it.

The Third Imperium has no tradition of democracy at any large scale, all the major centers of power are hereditary or appointive or meritocratic/military, it's not even part of the collective political frame of reference. Add in the fact that the 3I is already decaying from within, and it becomes likely that the only things Dulinor can do are fail or shatter the Imperium.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

The Imperium operates on two assumptions. One is that democracy cannot operate across interstellar distances of more than a few dozen parsecs. The other is that regardless of the merits of a particular political setup, it is impossible to impose it on a reluctant planetary society from the outside.

(I've always assumed that the in-game reason many PCs hold opinions similar to 20th Century democratic ideals is that Imperial culture in general and the Imperial services in particular actively extol such ideals. The Imperium can afford that, despite its own autocratic structure, because "everybody knows" that democracy won't work across interstellar distances.)


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Did you read the rest of what I posted about him?
I didn't mean 'Jacobin' as a compliment.
;)

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Do PCs often hold those views? That certainly hasn't been my experience, running and playing Traveller, or even reading about other people's games. Most players I've seen in Traveller games would fit fairly well into either Dune or a hard-ass cyberpunk milleu. Of course, it's a big Imperium and there is room for idealistic democrats out there- I've just seen almost none of them in actual play.

YMMV, and it sounds as if it does.
:)

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Traveller authors seem to think so.


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Traveller authors also thought that the Rebellion was going to be hugely popular (BTW, I'm in the minority of fans who do like it, so don't take this as a knock if you were with GDW back then). Later, they thought that the Virus was going to go over well with most fans (again, I'm not being a hater- but we both know a ton of fans hated Virus). Sometimes even the experts call it 'wrong', at least in regards to the majority of the fanbase. Gamers are not always a consistent or predictable crowd.

So, leaving aside what some other author might think, we do you think Traveller PCs often display 20th century democratic ideals?Has that been your personal experience as a GM or a player?

I'm curious about this one, Hans. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. This isn't something with a single right answer. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that my experience has been otherwise.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

It hasn't been my experience either. The Traveller PCs I saw were moral imbeciles willing to do anything for a buck and totally unconcerned with questions of right and wrong.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

How totally? Did any at least have mercs code, or pirates code with stuff like "stays bought" and "never inform on a comrade"?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

It seems to me that many of the published Traveller adventures were written with the assumption that the PCs are freelance operatives or mercs. They might be hired to extract a fugitive, recover embarassing documents from a blackmailer, steal technical data from a corporation, break somebody out of jail, or even overthrow the local government on some backwater planet. Kidnapping and even assassination are not necessarilly out of the question, depending on the circumstances and the pay.


Now, such characters might well have their own codes of ethics, as Jason has mentioned. It doesn't seem likely to me that they will generally be paragons of '20th century democratic idealism.'


Many are ex-military. The military is definitely not a democracy.

Some are nobles with titles but little money.

The social structure of the Imperium as a whole is strongly hierarchical, and not 'democratic' or 'egalitarian'

Some PCs may be from worlds with democratic governments, but many will be from worlds governed by feudal technocracies, oligarchies, dicatorships, etc

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Anyway, about terraforming Venus

The reason why I brought it up was that I think that using the planets of our solar system in Traveller games can serve as a bridge between hard sf and space opera, and between our 21st century known universe and the Traveller universe.

It may be difficult to terraform Venus, and the resulting world may be far from paradise, but it would be a really nice way in for gamers to get to know the traveller universe. Imagine starting a game with players who've never played Traveller or are very rusty. You start out on Earth- it has some vague similarities (the continents are more or less the same shape, an English variant language is spoken, many cities are still there). However it's also vastly different- spaceports, anti-grav vehicles etc, massive devastation left over from the Solomani Rim Wars and so on.

The characters then end up on Venus- the once hell planet that's now a mineral rich industrial hub, its population is smallish anda mix of hardy (maybe geneered) locals and semi-transient workers on highly paid hardship assignments (something like mine and oil rig environments today). It was a tough job to terraform Venus, but worth it due to its proximity to Earth. What it costs in effort is saved in the long run in transport times/costs.

From there the players are ready to boldy go into the rest of the Imperium and beyond. The habitable solar system has been the stepping stone into the wider universe.

Where possible terraforming is explained using contemporary science. When we get out of our depth, we resort to handwavium science. After all, in a universe with jump technology, we can make the science up from time to time to keep the story moving. Remember- it's all about the stories we tell.

Thanks for all your comments so far. Can't wait for the next round.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

What jobs are democratic? Most people have bosses, and many jobs in the U.S. are at will employment.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Traveller adventures tend to reflect the attitudes of 20th/21st century Westerners. There's a perfectly simple metagame reason for that, of course; they're written by 20th/21st Century Westerners. When such adventures call for breaking rules, the rules tend to either reflect Western rules or be explained in terms of differences from Western rules.

However, I was trying to come up with an in-game explanation.
Certainly not. But the attitudes they are not paragons of tend to be 20th Century democratic ideals.

The militaries of present-day Western democracies are definitely not democracies, but it's my impression that they promote democratic ideals.

That's just the point I was making. The Imperium is autocratic (or hierarchical, if you prefer), but that's because "everybody knows" that democracy can't work at interstellar distances. So the Imperium can afford to support democratic ideals, because no one is going to expect them to follow through as regards its own institutions.


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

It wasn't GURPS Traveller so no. And I'm not sure "Don't double cross people I people I like" really counts as a moral code.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Very few, but most jobs are pretty limited hours and you're basically free to do whatever while not on the job.

Then again, Traveller is a setting where you can get drafted by pirates (fail to enlist in anything, roll for the draft, wind up in 'other').

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I agree with you about most people having a boss, but that doesn't address the point I was trying to make.
The military is NOT at will employment. Flyn can quit his job any time he likes. An enlisted man can't do that. If Flyn breaks a formal contract with an employer, there's a small chance of a lawsuit. If an enlisted man breaks his contract, he may be tried by a military court and sentenced to time in a military prison and given a dishonorable discharge.

The legal rules are different for the military. Check out the UCMJ. The military can actually imprison you for not doing your duty. Under some circumstances, you might actually be killed. It's not ILLEGAL for Flyn to ignore his boss's directives. It is illegal for a soldier to disobey a lawful order.

Hierarchy is expressed differently, and is supported by both custom and law. The hierachy is more rigidly defined than in most jobs. People are required to wear uniforms that signal their place in the hierarchy.

The military claims much more say over your personal life than most employers. Inspections of you home and vehicle, rules about marriage and family arrangements, the way your wear your hair, tattoos,etc are all covered in the UCMJ. Until recently, even your sexual orientation was a legal matter. Expressions of individuality are limited not just by workplace rules or customs, but by actual laws.

Have you ever been confined to quarters by your boss, Flyn? Denied a weekend pass? Subjected to group punishment? Smoked because somebody stole Top's favorite coffee mug and hid it in the bottom of a porta-john?






If you don't know anyone who was in the military,and this all seems alien to you, I can suggest some reading.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I was drafted for Other. Then I enlisted for a term in Army, and was held over for another year on top of that. Now I am finishing another term in Other. I keep trying for psionics, but the dice haven't yet blessed me with powers.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

If your Imperium looks like, that, that's cool. I don't see much evidence of 'democratic' ideals being especially important in the 31, at least not in canon materials. Sure, some worlds have democratic governments, but that's really not very common. I'm pretty sure feudal technocracy is more common than democracy.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I can't speak for the 'West' (I don't think it exists as a valid category, BTW).

I can tell you that very little in my US Army experience leads me to believe that the Army promotes democratic ideals. It promotes hierarchy, tradition, group identity, obedience, and honor.

American soldiers do not use battlecries like ''For Human Rights and Representative Democracy!' I've heard people scream stuff, but it was generally unprintable or else some variation on 'kill those guys!" Sometimes people call on God for help. Nobody ever called on Congress, at least not to my knowledge.

Cadences were an important tool of indoctrination. We sang a truckload of cadences about burning, stabbing, shooting, and maiming other human beings. One is about children covered in burning napalm. About the only cadence that had anything to do with 'democracy' says that 'freedom isn't free.' There were no cadences about majoritarian rule, due process, parliamentary procedures, etc.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

We want want to start a new thread for this tangent, and the let this thread die.

Something like 'political/social ideals and reality in the Third Imperium'?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

In any case I'm not talking about planetary cultures. I'm talking about Imperial culture.


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

But the fact remains, that in the U.S. you have to choose to join the military. That doesn't equate to the omnipresent government type of Traveller lacking that initial choice.
If you were drafted then it might equate, unless I'm misunderstanding this debate subsection. A likely possibility I admit.


Edit: Not trying to derail the thread further. I posted before the previous suggestion to start another thread appeared.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

The Imperium is less omnipresent then the US government and relies on volunteers. The only thing omni present about it is geography. It can be light all over and can occasionally concentrate in a given era. But it is surely not omnipresent.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

So far as that exists, it seems to be based on honor, hereditary privileges, control of megacorps (not inferquently owned by noble houses), rank in the noble hierarchy, family connections, and military service. I'm not seeing any 'democracy' there. The Moot is not 'democratic' but aristocratic. It also doesn't govern the Imperium.

Again, YMMV, but I don't see much 'democracy' in the 3I, beyond those planets that happen to have democratic governments.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Assuredly not, though wiggling a third estate into the system would not be beyond the capabilities of an Emperor inclined that way. However what Flynn said was "Omnipresent" and I don't see that much either. Imperial citizens can actually fight wars with each other.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I don't believe that 'the feudal system' ever really existed. That's a RW history issue, though.

Let's leave that aside.

It does seem that the Imperium is meant to have what the authors thought of as typically 'feudal' characteristics. There's a lot of talk about feofs, personal loyalty being paramount, hierachies of nobility, knights and dames, etc.

There's a sort of Roman patron client thing in there too,

Some Early Modern Europe, for sure.


Democratic idealism? I don't see it. Maybe the Ine Givar? They want to tearn down the system, though! They are revolutionaries, not conservatives.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Yeah, it's more like the pre-reform era Ottoman Empire or the later HRE in that regard.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I shouldn't have to say this, but I'll remind people anyhoo-

I'm not a one size fits all Traveller fan. If your Imperium is very different from mine, that's cool beans, dudes. I'm not telling you your way is wrong.

I happen to think mine is pretty close to canon, but that doesn't make it 'better.'

If I decide to use a state church, that's be a major change. There's nothing wrong with changing stuff.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

It does make it potentially useful to more people, though. Which IMO is the whole point of having a canon in the first place.

Not in the moral sense, certainly. But it does reduce the usefulness of the stuff to me and (I assume) to quite a few other people as well. I just can't use any adventure that presupposed an Imperial state church (without spending my time on changing it back again, that is).


Hans

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Right.

I actually think your 'democratic Imperial values' is almost as big a change as my notion of an Imperial Church. I think it's a pretty significant departure from canon.

Or do you just mean that vague ideas about 'democracy' are fashionable in theory ( but never in practice) at the Imperial court> Something like the way some pre-French Revolution courts enterained the philosophes?

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

I've moved my end of this over to the new thread.

Re: Terraforming the Solar System
 

Since this thread has effectively been split into tangent and non tangent threads, I'm closing this one.