[DF] Puissance
 

As written, the spell Puissance (p.M65) gives a flat +1, +2 or +3 bonus to basic damage. I think this is too little when compared to things like Weapon Master and plan on changing to +1/die, +2/die, or +3/die. Do you think this is reasonable?

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

First +x/die stuff does not stack, but +1 to damage does.

So changing it to +1/ie makes it worthless to weapon masters.

even on the DF scal +1 to damage is still quite a bit.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

I wasn't aware of that. Reference?

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

This should help:

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Well, then this thread was a big waste of space.

Apologies.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

It answered your question. That isn't a waste. Nothing to apologize for. Questions are good things!

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

This is incorrect. The damage bonuses for Weapon Master and high Karate skill do not stack, sure, but the +2/die bonus for Weapon Master stacks perfectly well with the +1/die bonus from All-Out-Attack (Strong).

Just because it's +1/die does not mean that it won't ever stack. The only case I can think of where damage bonuses don't stack is the Weapon Master/Karate situation.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

I wouldn't want to make a weapon enchantment that provides a per-die bonus, simply because it would change depending on the strength of the wielder. However, I wouldn't be adverse to an enchantment that has a greater effect on weapons with a large bonus already. Consider the rules for Large weapons: a +1 SM multiplies the damage bonus by x1.5. If you let each level of Puissance (or a new weapon enchantment) have this effect, it would only make a difference with heavier weapons, or when you stack multiple levels. For most weapons it would provide just the normal +1 damage. I don't think it would be too unbalancing.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Nor dose the Boxing nor does the Brawling bonus, you have it around the wrong ways, it's AOA (Strong) that is the exception not the other way around.

as the Rev said the Genera Rule not Stacking, with exceptions.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Right. Weapon Master doesn't stack with any of the unarmed skill bonuses. This is the only time when damage bonuses do not stack, and it's because the unarmed skill damage bonuses are supposed to represent the same thing as the Weapon Master damage bonuses, just for things that aren't weapons.

Can you give any other examples of per-die damage bonuses? The only ones I can think of are the WM, unarmed skill, and AoA bonuses. All others are +(some specific number).

In any case, the Rev's quote isn't specifically about per-die damage bonuses. It's about damage bonuses in general. Are you saying that Puissance shouldn't stack with Weapon Master, Very Fine quality weapons, or anything else?

RPK is simply wrong here. The general rule is that damage bonuses stack, unless they're from the same thing or from things that are meant to be either-or.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

I think this is a feature of only being able to use one skill on an attack, nothing to do with the per-die damage bonus. You can't claim the bonus for Boxing and Brawling because you're only using one of those to attack. Likewise, you can't get the bonus for Karate and Weapon Master on a bladed hand because both of those are "skill-dependent" bonuses, and you can only use one skill at a time for the attack. There may be exceptions (such as if you have Brawling at DX+5 and Boxing at DX+2, and claim the higher damage bonus for Boxing but use the higher Brawling skill for the attack roll). But there simply aren't enough examples of either type of bonus (skill-based, like Karate or Weapon Master; and technique-based, like AOA(Strong) or Extra Effort) to definitively know how they'd interact with a new type of per-die bonus (ie, enchantment-based).

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Puissance stacks with those because that what it says it stacks with beucase Puissance's point is to increase them. because quality is not so much a bonus but a variation on the Base stat

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Yes, but Puissance doesn't specifically state that it stacks. If you were right, it would need to state that explicitly for it to stack. It doesn't.

Also, this thread is about Puissance. Why would it stack with Weapon Master if it's a +1 bonus, but not if it's a +1/die bonus?

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Puissance say it stacks because because cause it saying it adds to basic damage a weapon does. Quality sets what the basic damage is.

Because every example of +/die i can think of in the system are on the side of Generating sw/thr be either though Skill (from a skill it self, or WM) or Extra Effort (which includes AOA (Strong) )

But Puissance is about imporved the weapon, not the wielder.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

I disagree. Quality gives a bonus or penalty to basic damage. The weapon's type, and the stat line, determines what that basic damage is.

So? That should just allow you to make the argument '+x/die bonuses are about improved skill, not improved weapons' or something along those lines, not 'damage bonuses do not stack'. If someone wants to make Puissance more useful, they can certainly say it provides a per-die damage bonus and that bonus stacks.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

No Quality is like a lense and doesn't modified basic damage it sets it.

A Shortsword and a Fine Short swords are as septate items as an Elf, and and an Elf with the Aquatic lense are separate races.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Don't forget Claws or Strikers, they do +/die damage. Or techniques, they can also do get you +/die damage.

So someone with claws, doing an AoA(Strong) using an Unarmed skill's high damage technique can in fact stack several instances of +/die bonuses.

Anyway, its magic, its effect is to boost damage, so any weapon enchanted with it will do more damage compared to an un-enchanted equivalent. How it does it is irrelevant, only the fact that it works.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Good point. Claws and Strikers are basically an example of a weapon-based per-die damage bonus.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Read through a number of the posts in this thread -- enough to see that there's legitimate debate on the +x/die stacking. It seems like there are three simple options: (1) consider the Puissance bonus to be flat (as it is written); (2) declare that it works differently in DF; (3) create a "Greater Puissance" that DOES stack. Granted, there are other options, but I'm thinking of fun & playable DF options. The first is simple and obeys RAW without any real debate. The second is a simple house rule; GM's rulings, even when they rise to the level of house rules, are law, also RAW. The third creates a new spell; no biggie -- we do that all the time. I prefer the 3d option myself, as it preserves the "ordinary" Puissance and creates something a bit more unique for ye olde adventuring party to discover. And possibly a new (rare) spell for a PC enchanter to to discover, hence a ready made adventure or adventure arc.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

Personally I think that the lack of per die bonuses in Magic is a result of it's incomplete adaptation to 4e. It's just like all the untyped (or incorrectly typed) damage. At any rate, it seems pretty obvious to me that damage bonuses generally stack, but only one bonus from skill level can be claimed. A weapon master using a Fine weapon to make an AoA:Strong gets to claim all three bonuses.

Making Puissance a per die bonus makes magic bullets worth the cost, which is IMO a good thing.

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

There are other sources of "per dice" damage bonuses in Dungeon Fantasy: Double Swords and Tempered Glass weapons, both on DF8. If they don't stack, and they don't stack with Weapon Master, then I've been playing it wrong, but the text is less than clear. The way I read that thread is that skill-based per dice bonuses do not stack. You can only get the damage bonus from having the skill at X once, even if you have two sources providing the bonus (Karate and Weapon Master for the bladed hand, Throwing Art and Weapon master for thrown weapons)

Re: [DF] Puissance
 

I would never hesitate to stack bonuses coming from distinctly different sources. I also think that Magic in GURPS is too limiting for many genres, and would not see any problem with bumping Puissance up to +1/die, or otherwise just making it more effective. If you look at the damage potential of many fictional enchanted swords, they can be very hard to recreate by RAW...