GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

A little while back, I did my best to put together all of the individual traits, equipment lists, and modifiers for MH1, into this GDF:

http://www.mygurps.com/GURPS_Monster..._Champions.gdf

Basically, it's just about everything except for the character and racial templates. And I want to be up front in saying that I don't anticipate having the time to complete these. My intent was to do all of the boring stuff, in hopes that someone would pick up the torch and take care of the (much more interesting) templates.

I figured this could be the thread in which to tackle this project, post updates, and so on. (If anyone needs a way to share files, I'm willing to upload a file to my website and post the link here. Just email me a ZIPped copy of the GDF.) Any of y'all up to the challenge?

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

First, thanks for a great book! (I thought I had decided to try to convince my players to start a Dungeon Fantasy campaign, but now I find myself thinking about a Monster Hunters campaign instead...)

Anway, I've started on the Sleuth. It's *not* complete (yet), it's currently missing:
select from the Know Thy Enemy skills (need to define those skill lists),
selecting a motivational lens (need to define the lenses first, which I'm not likely to do anytime soon),
replacing Luck with Extraordinary Luck (haven't figured out how to replace an advantage from a select list),
wildcard skills (haven't figured out how to define and add packages),
testing...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3452290/Gurp...s%20Sleuth.GDF

Why the Sleuth? Well, I figured if anyone else started they were likely to either start from the beginning, or the end, so I picked one in the middle of the pack. :)

Edit: Oh, I forgot to say, as indicated by the file name, I figured that instead of modifying your file, it'd be better to create smaller files to be loaded after your file, at least while they're still being developed.

/Jonas

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

The motivational lenses add additional choices to the main templates' advantage and disadvantage (and maybe skill)) selectX's. How are you incorporating those additional and varying items. Figuring this out has been the hangup for me.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Hmm, just had a bit of an epiphany moment. I haven't tried this, but you could run a #choicelist() and run the outputted %aliaslist% into the list() of a #selectx(). So long as the #choicelist() runs first this should work alright.

The only downside of this is that you would have to have a separate #choicelist() to select the lens for the advantages, then repeat but to output to the disadvantages, and again for skills. Of course, if Armin would allow for more lists in a #choicelist() command besides list() and aliaslist() this could be a complete non-issue (and that's something I've been meaning to ask him for a long while).

I haven't looked at the Monster Hunters yet, how many Motivational Lenses can a character have? I'm guessing there isn't really a limit on them.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

The motivational lenses are published first in the book -- so following that logic they should get resolved first. I was thinking along similar lines, but haven't had a chance to check it. Would it be a problem if there are multiple characters open? The %aliaslist% could easily be different for each of them.

I'm not sure I follow, but am sure that this would be brilliant...

Ten published, with guidelines for GM/player generated ones.

Edit: Or, I could learn to read like the Good Reverend and answer the question you actually asked.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Each template requires the champion to take one, and only one, motivational lens. No one will have two or more.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I'm taking a shot at the Inhuman template, because hey. I like playing monster PCs, and here's a genre book ASKING me to play a monster PC.

Also, equipment lists in Low Tech are getting to me. Nice to do something intellectually challenging :P

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

That should be a pretty straightforward choice list. And once one person does it, everyone else can just steal and modify it. :)

I really think the lenses should be done separately. IIRC, it's possible to set up a choicelist in a template requiring you to choose from another template, isn't it?

You can't easily do so, so you have to add() a new 15-point advantage, "Luck becomes Extraordinary Luck", and then trust the user to either (A) live with that or (B) fix it manually after adding the template.

Check out the aliaslist (I think that's it?) command. It's used heavily in the Dungeon Fantasy GDF.

I agree; it makes sense to compartmentalize things. It'd be nice to just post them here, but the 10,000-character limit makes that tricky for a complex template.

BTW, I forgot to mention that over the weekend I made two tiny updates to the MH1 GDF on MyGURPS (linked in the OP). Added Blunt! (a wildcard skill mentioned in the warrior's Customization Notes) and deleted all of the Basic Set's "Path of..." magic skills because frankly, when I tried to build a caster it was hard to wade through all of the "Path of..." skills available, especially when only 9 of them were applicable to MH.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I'll do the choicelist for Know Thy Enemy. My current plan is simply to present all the races and trust the player to pick the right ones for his particular breed of Inhuman.

The Motivational lenses aren't so clear cut, because at least some of them have different effects depending on your template. But you can chain templates - it's kind of essential for the Inhuman :)

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I suggest hosting the individual files at the GCA repository so people can test them, and so if you vanish in a puff of internet logic (as internet people are wont to do during the summer) we can still find your work. :)

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Actually, minor note for the Sleuth's wildcards -- I don't think I'd do it as packages. It's just a bit too hard to do so. I'd do it as a normal choicelist that needs exactly 60 points and at least 2 items, then offer:

SK:Detective! #codes(upto 36pts, downto 24pts)
SK:Talker! #codes(upto 24pts, downto 12pts)
SK:Ten-Hut! #codes(upto 24pts, downto 12pts)

Then just put in the box instructions, "You MUST take Detective! and Talker!, but Ten-Hut! is optional." That covers all possible legal combinations from p. 17, unless I'm missing something.

(Technically, the user could deliberately ignore the instructions *and* the template rules and take Detective! and Ten-Hut! to make the box happy . . . but really, you can only try to idiot-proof things so much.)

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

As I recall from the DF templates that I did this might be easier for the user if there were separate options in a choicelist for each possible combination -- having a choicelist with upto/downto options got unpleasant to use really quickly. And spelling out the options is pretty easy:

1- Detective!-16 and Talker!-15
2- Detective!-16, Talker!-14, and Ten-Hut!-14
3- Detective!-15, Talker!-15, and Ten-Hut!-14
4- Detective!-15, Talker!-14, and Ten-Hut!-15

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

An update on the Inhumans!

I'm slowly grinding through figuring out all the choices based on other choices. For the current version of GCA, the user is just going to have to do some of the thinking for themselves - for example, they will be presented with all the Know Your Enemy skills and will have to pick the correct ones for their race "by hand".


For the Demon template, that one option that upgrades DR to 6 and removes Tough Skin is going to have a kludge custom advantage that costs 18 points, adds 2 DR, and you'll just have to remember it's better than Tough Skin. I'm remarkably comfortable with this :)

I'm wading through the skills list and hope to have a "beta" ready to go by next week.

I'm also still working on the Low Tech stuff (slowly)

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

any update to this stuff?

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I've been playing with the Commando template with an eye towards testing Eric's possible solution. Sadly, no, adding the aliaslist to the subsequent select list doesn't seem to work (but it doesn't crash the program, so that's something).

I think I'll experiment with a dummy-trait in each of the character template selects. Something like "_MotivationalLensTrait". The cost would be variable and defined by the user. It would be taboo to itself (thus calling attention to it for subsequent replacement). The user would then need to go to a separate Motivational Lens Additional Choices template to select the appropriate trait(s). This is pretty ugly, and would require close use of the book -- users couldn't just sit down at the computer and whip out a character easily.

It has been suggested that the motivational lenses could be done as separate templates called from within the character templates. The problem here is that when you call a template (lens) from within a template you can't have select lists in the subordinate lens.

I'm thinking that we'll have to use the alternative technique. Have a hidden attribute, call it MotivationalLensCount, that defaults to 0. Each lens then gives(+1 to ST:MotivationalLens). Then include a needs(ST:MotivationalLens = 1) in the character templates. This will leave an unfulfilled needs in GCA that can be picked up by the user by going in and selecting an appropriate lens from a separate list of templates.

I'll upload to the repository in the next couple of days with a working sample using the Commando and at least a couple of the lenses in place.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Wouldn't it be easier to just build one of each of each templates for each of the lenses? Sure It would make up a larger file. But it might be easier to get working using the existing program.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

That's a lot more work, and will result in a ton of templates. It's really simpler to build each champion template as a template, then each motivational lens as a template. Personally, I'd avoid the fancy taboo/prereq thing and just include an #x msg at the end of the template saying something like, "Once you're done, remember that you must add a Motivational Lens template as well!"

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Hmmmm. I thought that was why god invented Copy Paste. You only have to type each section once.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Not true. You have to integrate the Advantages as well. But more to the point, it means the user who loads MH1 and MH4 is faced, not with 20 templates to choose from in the little menu, but 200! Seriously, that's just a huge flood.

And then every time a book adds a new motivation lens, you have to make 20 new versions of it instead of one. And if there's a new template introduced in MH7, you have to make nine new versions of it instead of one. And if both are done, then you have to take that into account, which means the GDFs for each book will have to "double back" and revamp templates from earlier books!

No. If there's one thing I've learned from computer programming, it's that modules are good. Templates should be one thing. Lenses another. The fact that they're presented as one unit in the book doesn't mean that it should automatically be that way in GCA.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Doing each template/lens as a separate entry would generate a ton of templates that would make the Dungeon Fantasy line's template menus look trim and concise.

Also, it wouldn't be as simple as copy/paste (though that would be the first step). Each template would have to have each lens incorporated into it. Then each one would have to be run (and if I'm entering it it would have to be run a dozen or so times) to catch most of the bugs. Heck, I'm still catching stuff in DF1 and that file has been in users' hands for years.

Right now I'm just trying to get the Commando in -- the select lists are big and each one needs to be checked as it gets entered. I found out a long time ago that entering the entire template and then going back to debug is a recipe for crashes. Better to go step by step so that I know roughly what is causing the crash (or whatever error comes up). Once it is in I'll put in a few M-lenses and figure out how to link them to the template (RPK's suggestion is simpler than my solution, but mine puts a reminder icon on the screen).

In other words, it is coming along.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Shall we alert the Speculation thread? Care to give us a hint about the topic? Number seven ought, I think, either focus on Luck or classic cars...

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Yeah. It is a sucky solution. But everything I hear about the other way seems to say GCA kind of chokes on it at the moment. And I would rather have the templates functioning even if it is not optimal.

It would be nice to see the program updated to better handle things but I haven't seen any indication that is happening anytime soon.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

You didn't describe a non-optimal solution, you described an almost unworkable one which becomes more and more unworkable as the Monster Hunters series grows. The complexity of it would virtually guarantee no support at all.

As a non-programmer I don't necessarily expect you to understand why your solution is just not a workable solution as Rob and RPK describe, but trust us when we say that it's pretty much an unworkable solution. Programs are written in small chunks for a reason; duplication of code on a major level ("copy/paste" as you described it) makes programs just plain unworkable.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

My guess would be you had a formatting problem. Here's a working test template that implements the solution I described.

Note that with the current beta Armin has added the ability to have 5 additional Aliaslists, meaning you could have one for Advantages, Disadvantages, Skills, and still have 3 left over for other possible position dumps. If you think it would be a good idea to pursue writing the templates in this direction drop me a PM and we can discuss things in a lot more detail.



To me it seems this can best be accomplished with a very simple needs check, which you used in the Actions data file:
needs((TE:Template A | TE:Template B | TE:Template C | 1 "TECAT:Character Template - Monster Hunters - Motivational Lens"))

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I'm thinking 7 will be the MH supplement on food. Carbing up is very important for hunters, after all. I'm going to save classic cars for MH11 -- it just makes sense, since that'll be the supplement that introduces rules for building vehicles by choosing the tires. You know: Pick your width, the type of rubber, etc., plug 'em into the formula, and end up with vehicle stats -- a literal "bottom-up" approach. :)

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Me I'm just curious when we get MH5 and when :) I am hoping more monsters to kill.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Certainly possible. I'll look at it again. It would be much cleaner than my current dummy-trait...

Okay. Not today, working late.

It never occured to me to try needs on a TECAT. Much better. THANKS!

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Attention: Thomas brought a few errors to my attention. Nothing huge, but a few things didn't have proper point costs. Please re-download it and use the new version. Thanks!

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Oooohhhh.....So that implies that the Vehicle Design System will be out before MH11! You heard it right here folks! *ducks and runs for cover*

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

Just to add a note here, talking this over with Rob I came upon an idea on how to handle the Monster Hunter style Lens/Template relationship that will allow complete functionality, including modified advantage/disadvantage selection groups based on the applied Motivational Lens. And this solution we're working on will be FAR less complex, and take FAR less time to implement, than trying to do things the brute force way and make a hundred plus Lens/Template combinations.

Re: GURPS Monster Hunters 1 - preliminary data file. Anyone want to finish it?
 

I just thought of something. What if in the next version of GCA you made a tool so that when someone stats up an item they can click a button and have it emailed to you guys. then every couple week or month you could compile the items and add them to the appropriate gdf file. That way when someone stats up an item it ends up going to a central location and the data sets can be updated more often.