Surprise
 

Tonight we had a situation where the players(PCs) jumped up from behind a bar to "Surprise" some Mercenaries. Now these Mercs were expecting trouble, so this could be "Partial Surprise", however the rules seem to indicate there is always a chance of freezing. I don't see these Mercs freezing. I also don't see the PCs freezing either. What I did was allow the PCs to go first regardless of speed, and the NPC Mercs went last.

How do some of you handle suprise like this?

Re: Surprise
 

The contest of Sense rolls vs. Stealth or Camouflage replaces the surprise roll. If the ambushers succeed the targets are stunned as per Partial Surprise.

Re: Surprise
 

That can be extremely deadly in a modern gun fight. Even with Body Armor.

Re: Surprise
 

That's why people go to great lengths to preserve the element of surprise.

Re: Surprise
 

That's why the element of surprise is so valuable. But note the effect of Combat Reflexes.

Re: Surprise
 

Is this your take on it or something from Gurps rules?

Re: Surprise
 

As of Tactical Shooting (p21), it's RAW, though he didn't mention that if the ambusher looses badly enough the surprise can be the other way.

Re: Surprise
 

Yes, it can. It doesn't take more than a couple seconds of jumping out of your skin and panicking to get shot full of holes, does it?

This is why, unless you have the reflexes of a cat and the steely nerves of a.. a, uh.. really steely-nerved person (read: Combat Reflexes), it's a good idea to not be ambushed by people who mean to kill you as quickly as possible.

Re: Surprise
 

emphasis mine

Of all the other benefits of Combat Reflexes (and there are threats a plenty out there try serach Combat Reflexes underpriced ;->)...the bonuses to avoid the freeze/recover from Stun are the Most Valuable IMHO...especiallydfor a IQ 10 (or less) Figther type.

I once ran a fantasy figher with only IQ 9 (would never do that again) if he didn't have Cbt Relexes he would never have made it.

Without CBT Reflexes get surprised and get hammered for a round...then start rolling hoping for that NINE. (could easily go another 2-3 rounds).


With CBT Relexes take your lumps for a round...DON'T roll that 16,17,18 and then move on....

It's the little bonuses that can make the difference....

Re: Surprise
 

"Ambushes are murder, and murder is fun."

No such thing as a "fair fight," and all. If the PCs are tactically smart, they'll even stage L-shaped ambushes in which one of the elements fires lengthwise along the enemy line, and stray shots can hit those not directly aimed at.

A few rules, tho:

If you want badass Mercs, you give them (all) Combat Reflexes. Immune to surprise like that. Don't be surprised if you kill the PCs with dudes like this, though.

If you want REALLY badass Mercs, know IN ADVANCE what their tactical doctrine will be. Half drop and give suppression fire, the other half charge the ambush, whatever. But there are usually options that are more tactically sound than others.

Finally, if you want a lot of dead PCs, have the Mercs act like . . . PCs. Approaching a bar that people could clearly hide behind, have they recon by fire with either bullets (through the bar) or grenades. A Per-based Tactics roll would tell them to have behind-the-bar covered at all times, and having effectively taken a Wait maneuver as they advance, THEY get the first shot.

Re: Surprise
 

If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
- David Hackworth

If your attack is going too well, you have walked into an ambush.
- Infantry Journal

You, you, and you: Panic. The rest of you, come with me.
- US Marine Corp Gunnery Sgt

None of my players are silly enough to think I won't run (reasonably intelligent and trained) NPCs with as effective tactics as their stats indicate.

Shockingly, most of my players either avoid combat entirely or really try not to go into it without as many advantages as they can manage. I find this realistic and recommended behavior. :)

Re: Surprise
 

I am still not agreeing with this rule.

1. I find it very hard to believe that the Ambushers may be surprised, UNLESS a monster/alien that they were NOT expecting is part of the group they are trying to ambush.

2. Even without Combat Reflexes, if you are searching for another group and expect a fight could happen at anytime, then I still don't think you are going to freeze, unless again something crazy like a monster/alien is part of the group that is ambushing your team.

Re: Surprise
 

Mind you, this is just me...

But if you have a bunch of mercenaries who are expecting trouble, that seems to imply that they have their weapons drawn and aimed towards where they are expecting trouble - no? If you look at page 393, it states that...

"Partial Surprise
This may occur when the defenders were expecting trouble . . . or when
each party surprised the other! The GM should require each side to roll for initiative."

Notice here, that your mercenaries were expecting trouble. If you took the time to stat out your mercenaries, you should have chosen a leader for them as well as giving the mercenary "tactics" as a skill. Now if you really wanted to have fun?

Page 52 of GURPS MARTIAL ARTS has this perk called "TEAMWORK" in which a group of people form up together into a team, and the team works as a single unit (as if they were one person for purposes of when they act). So how does this work in a GURPS scenario? Lets assume that as GM, you have the following books:

GURPS MARTIAL ARTS
GURPS CAMAPIGNS & GURPS CHARACTERS
GURPS HIGH TECH

You as GM, have decided, that three mercs plus their leader, are experienced mercenaries who have worked together in the past. You also decide, that you'd rather not give them COMBAT REFLEXES, as this is a costly advantage to confer upon NPCs. So you stat them out with Tactics 14 (Leader), Stealth 12, Guns 14, and IQ 11 with perception at 12. Last but not least, they all have Teamwork perk, as they have worked together in the past. Standard operating procedure is for the mercs to break up into two fire-teams of two.

Also, you know that the mercs will be entering into the bar from outside, where it is sunlit while the bar is somewhat gloomy inside. You decide (not having access to GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTING, based on real life, that it should probably take 3 seconds for the mercs' eyes to adjust to the gloom inside. So -3 visual perception turn 1, -2 visual perception turn 2, and -1 visual perception turn 3 - no penalties afterwards.

So, you tell your players "Since much of the actions will occur without the Mercs being able to see you, or you hear them, I'm afraid I'm going to have to write down what is happening until such a time as you peek over or around the bar to see what is happening. You will have to rely upon your hearing to determine much of what is happening. One more thing. Your characters do as you do. If you talk loudly, your PC's talk loudly. If you whisper, they whisper. Every time you make noise, they get a chance to hear you. If you wish to move without making noise, I suggest you use stealth." Of course, the players will complain "But what if I talk to you in a normal voice to tell you what I'm doing!". Simply smile saying "what ever you say to the GM is not part of the scene silly."

Now for the realy FUN part...

So, what is it that

Re: Surprise
 

An ambusher is unlikely to be able to keep that close an eye on their target without spooking them. You're also assuming the ambushers have perfect information. If the squad you can see is walking straight into your trap, but you haven't seen their supporting squad moving through cover, then a counter ambush isn't unlikely. Indeed, royally botching the roll for your ambush is a reasonable enough excuse to assume that your opponents have successfully spotted your ambush and taken appropriate measures to nullify it. Which could mean simply avoiding it, or calling in an air strike to deal with the threat.

Also note time-scale. Even in a prepared position, you're not going to be set up unless you've spotted a potential target, and you're spotting point could be quite far away. This gives several minutes from set-up to execution where you want the target to move along a particular path. If they don't then you're ambush isn't going to work so well.

In other words in isn't a case of roll when they enter ambush zone, but roll when you set up. I think you're assuming that the roll is made when the targets enter the ambush zone, which I think is far too late as that is not a fair point. A fair point would the point where two opposing squads of equal skill have a 50/50 chance of it going either way. That is not the point where a target is about to enter you're ambush zone.
This is why partial surprise has an incremental bonus, and nothing stops you from doing a dodge and drop when the bullets start flying. However, you do need to work out were the fire is coming from, and this will take a few seconds.

Re: Surprise
 

You as GM decide that you will have the Mercs break up into two fire teams. Team A with the leader, and his partner A2 with the lowest speed being 5.5 due to the team's speed being that of the slowest member. Team B has B1 and B2, with 5.25 being the slowest speed for the team. A1 will open the door, while A2 is kneeling such that he can fire into the room if anything moves. Team B waits pointing weapons towards the door in wait mode. So the leader does his "one, two, three" motion with his hand while being to the side of the door, and pulls it open (assuming the door opens outwards). The GM then tells the player characters "Ok, make a perception roll twice." The players grumble because the GM isn't telling them anything - and is saying to roll only after he's hastily written down what the Mercs are doing. The players all succeed in their rolls (amazing isn't it?) and the GM says "The door opens quickly, and at the same time, you notice the light level of the bar increases as the reflected outside ambient light washes into the room - making the walls overhead brighten a little. What do you do?"

So the players decide that they're in wait mode, and that they will wait until someone jumps up and start firing. The Gm smiles saying "You do realize, that if you jump up and start firing, you will be at penalties to shooting because you haven't aimed, and you are pop up firing right?"

The GM scribbles some more after making some die rolls. He knows that the way to build suspense is by not telling them what is happening and making a lot of die rolls in order to make his players paranoid. Rolling a 12 and a 10, the GM notes that both of the Mercs from Team B enter relatively noiselessly into the room. Page 358 for sense rolls, suggests that the Gm decide what the noise level of the sound is, and then roll based upon range. Since the room is about 30 feet wide by about 60 feet deep, and the bar itself is about 50' in, that works out to roughly 16 yards from front of door to the bar. Deciding that the noise level is about par with quiet conversation - which means that you have to roll versus perception at a -5 (due to range) and -0 (as the second merc only made his stealth roll by 0). Unsurprisingly, the PC's don't hear the merc team silently enter into the room.

Now Team B is in and takes a wait manuever to fire at anything that moves inside of the room - that isn't their team members.

Re: Surprise
 

At this point, fireteam B is in wait mode, and Fireteam A is beginning to enter into the room. Just as Fireteam B went to the left when entering the door, fireteam A will go to the right as they enter into the door.

Now, they work together - one fireteam advances, while the other fire team watches. After the first fire team has advanced 2 yards and stops, they will be in wait mode while the other fire team advances. Each time use the stealth rules until the player characters either can't stand the suspense and peeks over the bar counter, or they stand up and open fire. Either that, or the mercs continue to advance until they begin to investigate the bar as a potential hiding spot. If there is a bottle on the table, or if the merc get close enough - they could even have one merc throw a chair at the bar proper, and have the other fireteam in overwatch (ie wait mode) to see if it flushes anyone from behind the bar. At the very least - it offers a chance for surprise against those behind the bar because they're not expecting it.

No matter how this works out? The mercs are always prepared to fire at the first thing that moves within their point of view. No surprise, no partial surprise, and the Mercs have the upper hand in the sense that they don't have to do pop-up attacks blind, whereas the PCs will have to do pop up attacks. Granted, the mercs will be penalized for firing at a pop-up target, but that's all part of the game ;)

If these mercs really do believe the player characters are in the bar, and the mercs have access to grenades, this gets real ugly real quick...

Re: Surprise
 

Even if the ambushees detect the ambush and attack into it without warning before it springs? Pretty sure that's what the 'your ambush failed badly' scenario represents. (And you've got to fail pretty badly to get there.)
You're not going to freeze: freezing is the 1d seconds you lose when you're totally surprised before you even get to start trying to break out of mental stun (or even use an active defense, if I'm reading it right). Combat reflexes guarantees that that doesn't ever happen to you.

Mental Stun isn't freezing. For an intelligent creature with combat reflexes, it generally means 'you need to take 1 second to get a handle on what's going on here'.
Not compatible with the rules in Tactical Shooting...and ambush is not a symmetric situation. Two opposing squads of equal skill (in whichever of the 3-4 applicable traits they're best at) are 50-50 between the ambush working and neither side being surprised. The intended victims need to win by a large margin for things to actually be in their favor.

Re: Surprise
 

Part of the point of the typical ambush-response drills (Basically, charge and OVERWHELMING FIREPOWER) is to do exactly that. It apparently can work quite well, too.

Mind you, the ambushees wining the contest by that much likely represents them seeing the ambushers before the ambush is started. Suddenly coming under heavy fire when you're expecting to be the one ambushing is certainly enough of a drastic change in plans to warrant surprise.

Firefights are crazy and often scary situations, with lots of stuff happening all over the place. When stuff starts to happen, it's quite easy to get lost for a moment or two trying to take in the details and figure out "What the hell is going on?" Even the full-on freeze could simply be trying to figure out what's going on (Been there...).

That said, a group that is actively hunting down another group and expecting contact at any moment seems like it would likely be in the Focused (Orange) state of alertness. Individuals moving and taking Wait maneuvers to cover potential threats. For the game mechanics, situational awareness is reduced due to focusing on individual points of potential threat, but as a result, if that threat does present itself where expected, the individual covering it is immune to partial surprise (And with a Wait, can immediately shoot at it). This should hopefully give the rest of the team time to overcome the moment of mental stun as they take in the new threat. (At least, that's how my reading of the Tactical Shooting rules goes. I really like them!)

Re: Surprise
 

B364, "Do Nothing" says Do Nothing is what you do when you're mentally stunned, and still lets you attempt active defenses at -4. B[3]93, "Total Surprise" confirms people frozen under total surprise are mentally stunned and must take the Do Nothing maneuver.

EDIT: page number typo corrected.

Re: Surprise
 

You mean 393, I think, but other than that you're quite right. I'm not sure how I managed to misread that the way I did.

Re: Surprise
 

Fixed.

You may have been misled by, "This is the number of seconds that pass before the defenders can react at all." (Emphasis theirs.) Obviously an attempt to defend is a reaction, so it would be less confusing if it said "can consciously react" or "can act".

Re: Surprise
 

I appreciate everyone's responses and explanations, but I still don't like these rules. And if I was a player planning a trap and my GM said roll for surprise and suddenly I was the one stunned if even for only 1 second I would not like it...especially if I knew ahead of time the enemy count that was walking into the bar.

I believe I have found my first Gurps 4e house rule. Maybe minor changes to surprise and partial surprise and new rule to handle Ambushing.

Just to restate the original situation with more details (probably should have done this to begin with), the 3 PCs saw from a window upstairs the 3 Mercs approaching (1 was a guy they have been after for a while). They ran downstairs and hid behind the bar waiting for them as they three entered into the bar. 1 of the PCs was standing pretending to be the bar tender with his hand on his SMG right below the bar. As the mercs entered 1 said where is Zack, as this was their make-shift hideout (Zack had already been dispatched by the PCs earlier). PC said, "what would you like to drink". Merc said, "you don't belong here, you need to get out now." 2 hidden PCs jumped up and started shooting and the PC/bartender pulled his SMG up and began spraying bullets as well.

I ruled that they all get first attack, even though 1 NPC was faster. I also ruled that the SMG didn't require a ready manuever as they would have the edge. Now I can see a one sided Quick Contest for Ambush stun that would only involve the NPCs being stunned if they lost, or maybe No stun and no advantage to the PCs if they were the ones to lose instead. But PC partial stun? No way jose.

I may have to pick up the tactical shooting rules and see what it says verbatim as there may be more options in there that might apply.

Re: Surprise
 

Ok.

However there are a number of places where in the described scenario where the PC's could have blown the Ambush.

Now if the NPC's had seen them through the 2nd Story window and had not come through the front door but had done something else. Rear door, dive through windows, up the outside and start firefight from stairwell etc...would you still say that there would not be a way the Ambush could turn on the PC's? Just curious?

Re: Surprise
 

It's called a counter-ambush. Instead of the ambushers catching the other guys unawares, the prospective ambushees notice ambush ahead of time, plan accordingly, and then ambush the original ambushers. It would be unrealistic to not have this as a possibility.

Not to mention 'lobbed several grenades through the windows'.

Re: Surprise
 

There aren't more options, but I don't think that's the sort of 'ambush' the rules are made for. The presence of a front man who (incompetently) tries to bluff the target isn't typical. At least, you'd be justified in rolling different skills than TS specifies for the ambush, if not changing it in other ways.

But that 'ambush' would be trivial to reverse. All you need is for the mercs to catch on to the situation without the PCs realizing it, and start shooting first.

Merc says "Where's Zack?", but he can tell it's a trap, recognizes the 'bartender' is no bartender and (based on stance/body language) is hiding a weapon, and is buying a little time while making sure his friends see it too with surreptitious gestures. When the oblivious PC says "What would you like to drink?", the mercs draw guns and grenades and open up on him and the entire bar area. Suddenly the PCs are totally wrong-footed, and also possibly dead. Any of them who aren't incapacitated, failing a fear check, or rock-stupid will nonetheless be able to return fire in a couple seconds, though.

Or if they catch on even sooner and don't enter the ambush at all, but at that point I wouldn't use the ambush rules at all. Others might differ, but the way that plan is arranged I wouldn't have made an 'ambush roll' prior to entering the bar.

Re: Surprise
 

The source of confusion seems to be that you adjudicated how the situation would unfold before you ever rolled the dice, in your mind at least. You had the lead merc walk in as if he had already fallen for an ambush, and only then did you roll for it. There's nothing wrong with assessing surprise to one side or the other on the basis of what the players say the PCs are doing and what you've decided the NPCs would do – that's a big part of roleplaying, and one of many things that differentiates RPGs from war games! But that mode of adjudication has an either/or relationship with rolling dice for the situation. You don't do both.

Imagine talking out the interaction between a punk and an action hero for a dozen lines of dialogue, during which time you roleplay the punk as backing down, using submissive language, and so forth. Then the hero rolls Intimidation vs. the punk's Will . . . and loses badly. Would you have the punk suddenly not be scared? Well, no – as the GM, you've already decided that he'd be scared and you've portrayed things that way. You've sent the player the message, "You roleplayed this encounter so well that, since you have the right skills, I'm giving this one to you." It would be a *** to roll the dice and have the punk laugh it off.

Consider an attempt to avoid guards. The players tell you their strategy and you let the PCs keep moving in, getting past guards, and apparently succeeding. Then, when they're at the objective, you have them roll Stealth vs. Perception . . . and they lose badly. Would you retcon the whole situation to have the guards cut them off? Hopefully not – as the GM, you've already decided that the plan for getting in would work and you've portrayed things that way. You've sent the players the message, "You planned your approach so well that, since you have the right skills, I'm giving this one to you." It would be cheap to roll the dice and turn the tables.

The case at hand is no different. If you were going to roll, you should've done so before the mercs ever stepped inside. If they had won and sent somebody in anyway, it would've been to distract from a counter-ambush. And then yes, the heroes could definitely have been surprised! While they were bunched up and hiding blind behind the bar, focused on one guy, the other two could've been doing anything. It's radical, but if these mercs were huge badasses, the man at the bar might've strapped on a second vest borrowed from one of his pals, done some coke, and been ready to get shot for the cause. When he didn't go down and the gunfire had deafened the PCs to the shots coming in the windows from the sides, the PCs would realize they'd been had.

GURPS generally assumes this process when PCs face NPCs:

1. Initial planning or roleplay by the PCs and/or NPCs, with the GM giving no hints as to the results and the players understanding that their choice of words and/or actions may or may not bear on the situation.
   
   
2. Judgment of quality of dialogue or planning by the GM, if he wishes to act subjectively and reward good ideas or penalize bad ones. He may instead decide to leave things to the dice and not meddle – because the PCs are the experts, not the players – although many players find it fun to gamble here.
   
   
3. Assessment of objective modifiers noted in the rules.
   
   
4. Dice rolls, with any subjective (Step 2) or objective (Step 3) modifiers assigned above.
   
   
5. Comparison of dice rolls to rules for canonical results.
   
   
6. Description of results by the GM, which is when reactive dialog or action, surprise, etc. is assessed.

GURPS supports the abridged, more roleplaying-friendly order 1-2-6, too! It also supports 3-4-5, for situations in which everybody agrees to leave it to the dice, because they're not personally subject-matter experts. The trouble is that you did 1-2-6 and then did 3-4-5, and found 5 and 6 to be in conflict. You can do 1-2-3-4-5-6 and have 5 inform 6, but doing 1-2-6-3-4-5 will rarely if ever make sense.

Re: Surprise
 

Incidentally, surprise in real life is rather subjective to begin with. It's mostly a state-of-mind issue. It's quite possible to be surprised by a state of mind that you didn't account for.

In the example at hand, even if you have the mercs walk in before rolling dice, there are valid ways for you to interpret victory on their part in a manner that would grant them the element of surprise. A very good roll might mean extreme mental preparation: They had an SOP for trouble at the bar, and as soon as the lead man walked in and spotted the fake bartender, he subtly took his safety off, went to Condition Orange, dropped a hand, and gave the trouble sign to his pals, behind him and out of the fake bartender's line of sight. The other two, obscured from the fake bartender's sight by their lead man, also went Orange, got ready, and stepped to either side. All three were savvy enough to know that nobody jumps three men by himself, and picked mental aim points behind or through the bar. And since the mercs won by lots, they did this so subtly that the only PC who could catch on missed it . . . and his allies were hiding behind a bar, unable to clue in. Then an instant before the lead PC could signal, bring up his SMG, whatever, the mercs seized the initiative, blasting the bar and everybody behind it big-time.

Here, the PCs didn't account for the mercs being suspicious types with an SOP for the bar, or being in Condition Orange, or having weapons ready in a way that didn't look ready, or being willing to shoot first and ask questions later. Meanwhile, the mercs saw the obvious fake and were ready for the state of mind of the sort of guy who'd stand out in the open to distract from an ambush. When the gears engaged, the mercs were out of the gate 1/10 of a second sooner, whereupon the noise and flash and confusion of being shot at suppressed the PCs for the second or so necessary to get dead. That's actually a lot more realistic than you might think!

What it comes down to is that if you never want to see that outcome – for the PCs to be out-guessed or run into somebody frostier than them and get shot, bad – then don't make surprise a dice roll. No ambush is airtight. There's always the small chance that your rabbit is a wolf, or that your "victim" is taking a calculated risk to lure you out. There's even a chance that you could make a noise or flinch in a way that gives away the game, and your target is wired and goes off faster than you expected. You can stack the deck by giving the PCs big bonuses for good planning, but if you roll, then you have to accept that they could lose horribly. If you're 100% sure that they couldn't lose, then don't roll in the first place; just go with the 1-2-6 method I outlined above.

Re: Surprise
 

This creates the issue "When do you roll for the surprise". If you don't do it early enough then you may have to reverse time on the PCs. Also, the PCs have a tendency to change their minds as they setup the ambush so again...when do you make the surprise roll?

It seems to me that there could be a better way to implement this rule.

Re: Surprise
 

I should also mention the bar was had a brothel upstairs and the PCs were disguised as female hookers.

Re: Surprise
 

You just need to ratchet back your thoughts on encounter ranges.

Think of it this way: you probably need to think about some sort of contest of detection at a few places in any prospective encounter. Let's assume we're talking "bad guys" coming to play into a scenario centered around the "good guys," like you're describing.

1) REALLY long range. Can the bad guys reasonably detect/predict the event? Something that lets them clue into the fact that things are not as they're supposed to be? This might be a Quick Contest of (say) Intelligence Analysis vs Administration if there's a paper trail the bad guys are following. Or something as straight-forward as Perception vs Camouflage rolled at some crazy range to see if the bad guys can set up a sniper shot. Often you can just skip this entirely . . . but the PCs probably won't want to, and if your players are like MY players, they'll assume that whatever location they're heading to is naturally filled with rats, bad guys, and zombies Maybe bad guy zombie rats, even. With guns.

2) Not so stupidly long range. When they come into easy visual range of the location. Maybe it's a few blocks away, or when you can easily resolve doors and windows type of thing. Is anything out of the ordinary? Did a curtain twitch? Is an easy approach too hard, or a hard approach too easy? Do any of the NPCs have Danger Sense? This could be anything less than 400yds or so, but will often be of the "down the street," or "around the corner" level of resolution. Again, this might be a non issue . . . but are the "good guys" disrupting the normal operation of the building? The call-girl usually outside the street is tied up because the PCs needed her, um, outfit?

3) Immediate before encounter range. Any sort of character who lives by finding or causing trouble will not just waltz through a door unless he's DARN confident he knows what's on the other side. If you've seen Firefly, "The Counselor" sent a bodyguard through to check out Serenity to make sure all was clear. Top Honchos will do this anywhere from minutes to DAYS before a visit. They might even routinely clear out a building (by renting out every girl in your brothel, for example, for use or not) before they come. Certainly before they come in through a FRONT DOOR they'll want to check out the place. They might even do this subconsciously, but do it they will.

4) Immediately INSIDE encounter range. As soon as they can get a read over interior spatial dimensions (layout of room scream AMBUSH COMING!) and people (are the patrons nervously looking behind the bar, where the good guys are hiding? Is the good guy who's a barkeep a bit too ostentatious at keeping his hands below the table?) they will do so. Could be a QC of Body Language (though this is mostly 'detect lies,' Acting, Streetwise, or Tactics . . . all based on Perception vs. Acting or Tactics or something else on the other side). I might even make it a Regular Contest, where if they win, they see through any ruses, if they make their roll but don't win, they're alert but not tipped off, and if they lose they stroll in thinking all is right with the world.

5) Imminent Danger. Something is going to potentially tip them off when they're in Combat Time. Unless they're doing something else, they'll be looking at Evaluate and/or Wait maneuvers in turn if they're quality opposition. Someone might notice something.

Only after those gates are passed do the 'good guys' get to open up and blaze away on the unsuspecting schmoes.

Does that mean you have to go through all that EVERY TIME? Heck no. But you should think about the opposition, and how they might detect a threat, especially if they're looking for one.

Re: Surprise
 

Dumb fighters who can't afford CR should consider this perk I invented:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ppy#post621508

Re: Surprise
 

Because it's a state-of-mind issue, this necessarily has to be subjective. It's probably best to ask the would-be attackers when they wish to open fire.

If you're rolling 1d vs. 1d to see who spooks whom, that line is where it happens. A loss for the ambushers means their targets were more alert than they looked, and shoot first.

Example: "We hide behind the bar. We shoot as soon as their last guy is in the door." "Okay, roll 1d, and I'll give you +3 for planning." "Uh, 1 plus 3 is 4." "Well, they rolled a 6 and come through the door blazing." "Crap . . ."

If you're making fancy Quick Contests against Camouflage or Stealth, then you also have to set the danger radius being scanned by the NPCs. They can set it wherever they like, but the further out it is, the heftier the range penalty. When one party crosses the other's line for the first time, roll the Contest. Victory for the party that isn't hiding means the ambushers are sitting in plain sight, thinking they have the initiative, when they're hit an instant before they would hit. Thus, saying, "We're watching 100 yards" is fine, but if you screw up your roll at 100 yards, you're surprised and don't get a roll when you step inside the 20-yard line your enemies picked. "We're watching 10 yards" means you roll at that 20-yard line for those enemies, but might do well against guys around corners waiting for you to get within arm's reach!

Example: Setup as above. If the GM already decided the NPCs were not on high alert, they get a Sense roll (probably penalized for range) vs. the PCs' Stealth (likely with a bonus for concealment) on entering, and only get the drop if they win. If the GM concluded that the NPCs were looking for trouble in the street, he'd roll their Hearing vs. Stealth to notice the PCs setting up, or even Streetwise vs. Stealth to see worried patrons, hookers, etc. fleeing. If they won, they'd bust in with the advantage of surprise.

It's important to realize that most hiding places actually suck. People get shot through furniture, doors, walls, etc. all the time by twitchy enemies who thought they heard something. They don't in movies, of course. If you're running cinematic realism, then don't roll at all for the NPCs . . . just let the PCs roll vs. Stealth and if they succeed, they get surprise.

You ask the players what their plan is and when they will shoot. You do not reveal a darned thing about the enemy that they don't know at the time they make their plan. Once they speak, they are locked in, and anybody who changes his mind is confused and loses surprise automatically. Then you explain what the NPCs are doing, and roll the above rolls.

Re: Surprise
 

I think one of the problems is that in my group we like to roleplay a lot and I think the players like being in a tense roleplay and then they have to make up their mind each second as the scene plays out. So the 'locked in' approach technically would work, however I dont think it is as fun as the roleplaying up to the action of guns/grenades a-blazing. Did that make sense? It is difficult to put some of these abstract ideas into concrete words.

Re: Surprise
 

The Mercs had gotten wind that something was fishy in their hideout. When they realized the bartender was a fake, they click twice, stall for time ("Where is Zack?") just long enough to get the response, and then click twice again.

A .308 round comes through the window, the "bartender" goes down in a bloody mess, and the shooting starts. They will probably guess that the fake bartender probably won't be the only ambusher, the bar is the obvious hiding place, and concealment != cover.

That's counter-ambush.

Re: Surprise
 

I guess what I did was make up my mind that the NPCs would NOT sniff out the ambush, unless the PCs did something stupid/funny during the roleplay after they entered into the bar. And yes, they come up with some funny stuff!

But I could have done a secret quick contest as soon as they said we are hiding behind the bar. Loser then gets partial surprise. Then roleplay the results somehow.

Re: Surprise
 

You could also roll the surprise check earlier, but only determine if it's a success once the trap is finally sprung - if the players do something that would have given a penalty to the surprise check, and it's enough to make it so the original roll was a failure, then the mercs got wind of the ambush and were able to act on that info.

Re: Surprise
 

When the PC's rolled to spot the Incoming Bad Guys (ie looking out through the 2nd Story window), the bad guys should have gotten a roll to spot the PC looking at them. Now depending on time of day, relative angles of the looker, lookie and the sun there would very likely be some penalties...but that is where I would have started...

Re: Surprise
 

Well if you as the GM decide that the scenario would play out that way then thats cool.

However when the time comes and you want to up the challenge level remember some of the things that have been mentioned in this thread.

On the sliding scale from street thugs to Operators one of the steepest climbs is from Take things for Granted to Assume your Own Grandmother is Packing and Hates you...so Pat her Down to be Sure.

Because the serious pros have probably seen a lot of people die who "didn't want to waste time double checking the obvious..." So now they do check, everybody, all the time.

Re: Surprise
 

Much of the advice given depends upon the motivations of the players versus the motivations of the Versus the style of game play.

For instance, if the idea is to provide the illusion of danger for the player characters, but never put them in a life/death situation where they will lose their character, that is one style of game play. If on the other hand, the intent is to run a simulation, where the rules favor neither the NPCs or the PCs - that is another style of play. Then you have the half of one, half of the other type of thing, where usually it isn't a simulation style game, because when the dice come up bad against the player character, it is generally "curtains" for the unlucky character.

Me? I would hate to play in a campaign in which either

A) I can never win because the GM rigs the game
B) I can never lose because the GM rigs the game

Net result? I tend not to enjoy games in which the GM rigs the results ;)

That having been said? I honestly understand why some people grow so attached to their characters that they do not want to lose the character to some bad luck at the gaming table with the dice. A careful player on the other hand, will try to minimize those times when the dice will roll bad, and will be on edge of his seat with the realization that the dice CAN come up bad or it can come up good. That for me, is part of the excitement.

Re: Surprise
 

Even when you stack the odds in favor of the PCs they can still lose. We have already had one PC get shot to death trying to take this Bar/Brothel. Bad dice rolls and bad plan by the PCs (good die rolls by NPC enemies). I don't know if you would call it 'rigging the game', but I do give my PCs a slight advantage because I want them to succeed and drive the story forward....and THEY are the story. But, if they do slip then they do die. Gurps can be a deadly system even without the surprise rules RAW....SHEESH, can't we give the PCs any breaks????

Re: Surprise
 

So which combat unit did you serve with?

Re: Surprise
 

I have my players make the unnecessary die rolls...

Re: Surprise
 

Ummmm - bad question to ask when it comes to GURPS. I'll tell you why *evil grin*

Hard to Kill: granting this automatically to the game players does give them a break in that you're stacking the odds further in their favor. The bad news is, that the dice can still decide (as if they had free will to decide!) that your character is going to bite the big one tonight.

Luck: You do realize, that players can get a discount on the luck advantage by limiting it only to death saving rolls right? ;)

Then you have all those fun advantages in the GURPS book that can give the player characters an edge - all because the players thought "Gee, just what I need!" and then started to play their characters based on those traits.

I generally run medieval fantasy games for my players, and rarely ever venture outside the comfort zone for more modern campaigns. Why? Because my players know only too well, that GURPS can be brutal in higher tech levels where death from a weapon doing 6dx3 isn't all that uncommon (let alone the 13d6 50 caliber round from high tech!). In one campaign, the players were involved in playing themselves in a GURPS AFTERMATH campaign (literally before the bombs fell, and after the bombs wiped out civilization as we knew it). Back then, I was using GURPS 1st edition full auto rules, and despite the fact that on full auto, only many of the "to hit" numbers dropped below 8 on 3d6, the players were still on the edge of their seats. So much so, that during one encounter, the players were being attacked by a US military reservist unit, and one player handed a rifle to a 17 year old girl NPC, who was scared of guns, and refused to fire it or even touch it. After the fire fight was over, the one player, playing himself as a character, announced he was back-handing the 17 year old girl. Adrenaline was flowing high that night ;)

Of course, the worst thing I did to the players in that campaign, was to have a sniper hunt them down, and then put a round in one of their favorite NPC's (the 17 year old girl was popular for some odd reason during the ongoing game play) and the same player who back-handed her after the one firefight, went beserk when she went down in the middle of a creek crossing single file. That night, the players were literally besides themselves as they tried to charge a prepared sniper position, and then felt helpless to save the one person they all depended upon after the sniper's booby trap took him down (a grenade in a tin can tied to the tree at knee level with a fish line to pull the grenade out of the can).

Sometimes, the story isn't that they always win and move the story forward. Sometimes it is those failures and how one deals with them that becomes the story, or moves it forward. One player, was surprised at the sudden arrival of another player character. I noted that she didn't say she was announcing her arrival in advance, and I knew the players were trigger happy AND jumpy as they were being mobbed by cannibals (Ever read LUCIFER'S HAMMER?!!!). I asked the player after she arrived "You see someone coming in unexpectedly in the door. Do you fire without seeing who it is, or do you fire immediately so they can't get inside with the plague?" He shot her without taking the time to identify her. And that was player character on player character!

Hmmm. Maybe this explains their comfort zone being TL 3 and lower. I positively smile remembering all the "fun" stuff. Mike Milligan the Special Forces soldier, Davey Smith, Darleen Smith, as well as the baby rescued from a motorcycle gang, not to mention Camp Unirondock where the players earned the nickname "Hole in the head gang" (prompting Fort Drum survivors to mount a search and destroy mission against the player characters)

I will never forget the looks on the players faces after they ambushed two men who tried to kill them just to steal the liquor in their house after the bomb fell (the bums used a garbage truck no less). They couldn't quite figure out why people were shooting at them after they appropriated the garbage truck until one of them finally realized "Hey, think they might believe we're the robbers instead of the robbers we killed yesterday?"

Ah well. Guns have their place, providing as GM, you remember that most shots missed their targets except at close range, and that most people are lousy shots.

Those three mercs you described as knowing their business, probably should have been good shots, and great at surviving. But...

Even the best warrior can be laid low by a stray bullet ;)

Re: Surprise
 

Yep. They all had DR 7 armor and 17 gun skill...but the PCs laid them to waste with the ambush. Once again, excellent Rapid Fire rolls for the PCs and a couple of Critical Failures on the NPCs side....along with standard bad rolls. I was really surprised at how bad it went for the NPCs.

Gurps is a finicky game, you never know how a firefight will go, even if you give one side or the other an advantage.

Re: Surprise
 

So the question is - which is it that you desire? To know how it will go, or to not know? Dice is used to keep things random and unknowable.

Have you ever played JAMES BOND the role playing game? There they had a thing known as Hero points, where you only earned them during game play by rolling a qualty one result (almost the equivalent to a crit hit). You could use the hero points to lessen the damage done against you, or you could use the hero point for other things (My memory being like a sieve these days, I'd have to read up on what it does permit). The point is - you had a specific number of them to help keep the character alive, but when the hero points run out, then you're at the mercy of what ever fate throws at you.

And oddly enough? GURPS even has a game mechanic to simulate this - called spending experience banked experience points to relabel a shot as a flesh wound, etc ;)

Mind you, I'm not calling you someone who is more likely to run a cinematic game or not, but you may want to look more closely at the cinematic rules if it gives your players the extra edge to survive.

Re: Surprise
 

Couple of things...

One <GM hat on> IMHO a fair bit of being a "hero" is how you deal with things when the things go bad <ie the dice shank you>. <GM hat off>

In 25+ years of RPGing in GURPS one of my favorite momemts was when my 100 pt Martial Artist and the party he was with got ambushed/kidnapped out of the inn that was their base. We all woke up naked an chained in a locked chamber. One PC was a Cryokinetic (most of the other PC's didnt know it) he started working on freeze/shattering the chains of the others.

Two bad things happened with the dice...one the shank (think troll but bigger/ meaner) made a perception roll and started into the cell...two the Cryokinetic kept failing rolls on my ankle chain (3 links one try per link).

The MA built when meditation was interpreted to allow a "cold beserk" state...was build to take advantage of that rule. I stood and taunted the shank as he took a range 1-3 two handed "Grain Flail" to me. I was calling his momma things, I spit on him at one point. I fairly knew this 17 yr old kid was going to die, but he was built on the "rather die than quit mold", plus while he held the subgenius' attention his friends were able to slip around the sides and out...and the cryokinetic got another try or two...The GM didn't really fugde any die rolls, but he did have an NPC or three show up "just short of too late" without much in the way of reason. Objectively the PC mostly stood there being beaten to death (somewhere between -2xHT and -5xHT), couldn't even fight back. But he realized it, saw what he COULD do, and calmly worked on enraging the big palooka into focusing just on him, so his friends could get away. Different strokes for different folks but sometimes a character *may* go out that way and the Player will be fine with it.

Another thing in the rules...(cinimatic options in Martial Arts?? IIRC) as GM you can allow PC's to Buy Success. <look in indexes under Flesh Wounds or Buying Success>

My GM will allow a PC to pay a CP (mark it off gone forever) to make a roll a sucess or to say IT IS ONLY A FLESH WOUND. I routinely hold 1 unspent cp in bank, all the time, just in case. Only had to use it once in the last 4ish years (Fantasy less deadly than Modern) but I like to have the option as painful and expensive as it is. Something you might wish to implement.

But Yeah GURPS + Guns = deadly. Kinda a lot like real life.

Good luck.

Re: Surprise
 

• Any major character could use them defensively, to alter by one in either direction the quality rating of any die roll that affected them.
  
• Heroes but not villains could use them offensively, to alter by one in either direction the quality rating of any die roll made by them.
  
• Player characters could use them "on the environment", to work minor effects of serendipity, such as (example from the rule-book) a car in a dealer's lot having keys in it.
  
• Player characters could spend them on the encounter system. In a "cold" area this tended to produce an encounter that would draw them into a "hot" area, and in a "hot" area it tended to produce encounters that gave significant plot opportunities, such as a potential romantic encounter with the Beautiful Foil.

James Bond 007 was a little charmer of a game design. Best match of game mechanics to genre I've come across in an RPG. The encounter system in particular is a rare work of art and beauty, and sadly completely useless for anything except a cinematic game in the James Bondage genre.

Re: Surprise
 

Luck is the go-to advantage for 'you guys pull through even when things go wrong or you're in over your heads'. Luck is particularly the perfect countermeasure to the 'you have rolled poorly, have a copy of Characters and a new sheet' effect.

Re: Surprise
 

QFT one of the big changes from 3rd to 4th ed was making Luck something you called before a roll...this is important I want three tries at it. to the current something you CAN call after a roll....Holy excriment that will kill me lets see if the other two rolls will give me a 15 or under, while retaining the earlier usage.

It took Luck to Something Very Nice to "If I have a 15 point character I know exactly where my entire budget is going."

Luck = Critical Insurance (Your crit fails Your opponents crit successes its all good!!!)

4th Ed Luck...if you don't have it Can You Read?

Again as always IMHO and IME. I do not wish to offend but truthfully it is how I feel.

Re: Surprise
 

There are reasons not to have it, or not to permit it. Luck can have a considerable game-mechanic level impact on the tone of the game. Some games will work much better with 'everyone has at least 2 levels of Luck (maybe with Limitations)'. Some will work much better with 'no one has any levels of Luck'...

But at least a bit of it is a great buy, yeah.

Re: Surprise
 

Well yeah if a GM says no Luck that thats the tune...but if it is available...duh.

I would not build a character around it (Super Luck with Ridiculous Luck and a few points for stats and skills frex) but the basic 15 pts once per hour version hack yes.

I have built 2 character for 4ed...so far I am 2 for 2 with no regrets.

Re: Surprise
 

In fact, 3e never actually said when you could reroll. Steve was asked about it in his Q&A column back in the Roleplayer days and felt that "after" was fine, so that was the de facto ruling. All 4e really did was formalize that intent.

Re: Surprise
 

I've got a 3rev Basic that says you can use Luck after the first dieroll.

Re: Surprise
 

To Be honest that could have been a carry over from 1e on our part...I lost the red 3 ring binder I used to keep that copy of basic in after the binding went...do have my paper 3e at home will probably take a peek then.

I just remember when I rejoined the group in 2005 after a 3-5 year absence they said..."update to 4e and here is the skinny on the changes..."

No harm no foul...but I do really like luck in its current form...the protaganists in most adventure storys probably qualify for basic Luck (with the possible execption of Job) so I could see a majority of PC's having it too.

After all its not like they are Redshirts!