GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

One of my longer-running projects is to create a Dark Sun conversion. I see this as sort of an "Ultimate Dark Sun" project - I will take the coolest parts from the Original Boxed Set, the Revised Boxed Set, and the new edition for D&D 4E. Overall, I will try to recapture the feel of everything without trying to recreate every nuance of the original rules - thus, there might be some simplifications or alterations.

Whenever I come up with something new, I will post it into this thread. Please give me feedback if you think I made some mistakes, or if you have come up with some better way to convert everything.

EDIT: All "finalized" elements of the conversion can be found here!

First, I will start with the races of Dark Sun - and it is only appropriate that I will start with the ones presented in the original boxed set. More exotic races will follow at a later date.



= Races =

== Dwarf (57 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST +1 [10], HT +2 [20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: HP +1 [2], Will +1 [5].
Advantages: Extended Lifespan 2 [4], Higher Purpose [5], Infravision [10], Magic Resistance 3 [6].
Disadvantages: Stubbornness [-5].
Features: If the dwarf is killed while having failed his Higher Purpose, he will return as an undead banshee haunting his unfinished works.

Notes: The Higher Purpose of a dwarf is referred to as his focus. This is a longer task that requires at least one week to complete, and the dwarf may choose a new one after finishing it.
The Magic Resistance of dwarves works explicitly against wizardly magic only (defiling or preserving). Alchemical potions/fruits work normally.

== Elf (62 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: DX +2 [40], IQ +1 [20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move +1 [5], [HP -1 [-2]
Advantages: Enhanced Move (Ground, only affects long-distance travel -40%) 0.5 [6], Extended Lifespan 1 [2], Infravision [10], Silence 1 [5], Temperature Tolerance 3 [3].
Disadvantages: Claustrophobia (15) [-7], Elven Code of Honor [-5], Impulsiveness (12) [-10], Reputation -1 (as untrustworthy cheaters, all the time) [-5].

Notes: Due to their Temperature Tolerance, the "comfort zone" of elves ranges from (35-HT) °F to (95+2xHT) °F.

Elven Code of Honor (-5 points): Live for the moment; don't get tied down to a place and reject all confinement; protect and respect your tribe members (and the rare others who you consider your friends); outsiders are potential enemies who might swindle, cheat, or harm you and thus can be swindled and lied to in return.

== Half-Elf (30 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: DX +1 [20]
Advantages: Infravision [10].

== Half-Giant (52 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST +10 (SM +1, -10%) [90], IQ -2 [-40], HT +1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers:
Advantages: Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]
Disadvantages: Chummy [-5].
Features: Size Modifier +1.

== Halfling (14 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST -2 [-20], DX +2 [40].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move -1 [-5], Per +2 [10].
Advantages: Magic Resistance 2 [4].
Disadvantages: Odious Racial Habit (eats other sapients) [-15]
Features: Size Modifier -1.

The Magic Resistance of halflings works explicitly against wizardly magic only (defiling or preserving). Alchemical potions/fruits work normally.
Halflings start with Cultural Familiarity (Halflings) instead of Cultural Familiarity (Tablelands).

== Mul (29 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST +2 [20], IQ -1 [-20], HT +1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP +3 [6].
Advantages: Less Sleep 2 [4], Lifting ST 3 [9].

== Thri-kreen (jeral) (106 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: DX +2 [40], IQ -1 [-20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move +1 [5], Basic Speed +0.5 [10], Per +2 [10]
Advantages: Affliction 1 (Paralytic Venom: HT; Follow-Up, Teeth or Striker, +0%; Paralysis, +150%) [25], Damage Resistance 4 (can't wear armor, -40%) [12], Doesn't Sleep [20], Extra Arms 2 [10], Fangs [2], Sharp Claws [5], Super Jump 2 [20], Vibration Sense (air) [10]
Disadvantages: Odious Racial Habit (eats other sapients) [-15], Short Lifespan 1 [-10], Vow (only own what they can carry, no concept of money) [-15].
Quirks: Consider elves delicious, see everything in terms of "the Hunt", loyal to "pack".
Features: Cannot jump backwards

Notes: The Fangs represent mandibles.
After being bitten, the victim must make a HT roll. Failure means he’s paralyzed for one minute times his margin of failure.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Wow, thanks!

I shall be subscribing to your newslett-er, thread!

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

A thri kreen template (I favour higher point templates that tend to significantly differ from baseline humans):

Thri-kreen:
2nd Ed: +2 Dexterity; +2 Wisdom; -1 Charisma.
3rd Ed (dragon magazine): +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence, –4 Charisma.
4th Ed: +2 Constitution; +2 Wisdom;


EPH = Expanded Psionics Handbook
TkoA = Thri-Kreen of Athas
DSCS1 = Dark Sun Campaign setting 1st Ed

Thri-Kreen
Weight: 450+d20 lbs
Height: 84 +1d4 inches (48 inches longer than they are tall)
Lifespan: Base age 6, venerable 25*, max age 25 + 1d10 years
*-1 Str/Dex

Human (Male/female)
Weight: 140/100 + 6d10 inches
Height: 60/57 + 2d8 inches
Lifespan: Base age, 15 + 1d8, Middle age 40**, old age 53***, venerable 80****, max age 80 + 2d20 years

** -1 Str/Con; +1 Int/Wis
*** - 2 S t r / D e x , - 1 C o n ; + 1 W i s
**** -1 Str/Dex/Con; +1 Int/Wis

Athasian Thri-kreen [370]
ST +5 (NFM -40%, SM+2 -20%) [20]; DX +3 [60]; IQ -1 [-20].
Speed +2.25 [45], WILL +2 [10], Per +2 [10].

Advantages: Afflication: Paralyzing poison (Follow-up: Sharp teeth +0%, Melee attack, No parry -35%, Paralysis +150% [22]; Doesn’t Sleep [20]; DR 5 (can’t wear armour -40%) [15]; Extra Arms +2 [20]; Extra attacks 4 [100]; Racial Memory (Reliable +8, +40%) [21]; Reduced Consumption 3 (water only -50%) [3]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Super Jump 2 [20]; Super Jump 1 (Vertical only -25%) [8]; Temperature Tolerance 10 [10]; Thri-Kreen Hunting Talent 4 [20]; Very Fit [15]; Vibration Sense [10].
Disadvantages: Callous [-5]; Hidebound [-5]; Racial Reputation: Hated by Elves -4 penalty, Large Class, Always recognised [10]; Sense of Duty: Clutch [-5]; Short lifespan [-10]; Stuttering (Not vs. own race) [-7].
Racial Learned Skills: Survival (Desert) [1], Tracking [1]
Taboo Traits: Cannot swim [0]

Thri-Kreen Hunting Talent: Camouflage, Naturalist, Navigation, Survival, and Tracking.
Reaction bonus: Hunters, and the like. 5 points/level

1. Strength
Thri-Kreen Weigh 450+d20 lbs, in GURPS that means they should have a ST/HP of 15. However, they didn’t receive a bonus to ST (though in 3.5 they get a +2, EPH p.15), and TkoA says: So I gave them ST +5 (No Fine Manipulators -40%, SM+2 -20%) [20], since a 460lbs leaping Thri-kreen should be able to make some nasty slam attacks.

2. Dexterity
Originally Thri-kreen had a minimum Dexterity of 17, in GURPS this should be greater than a mere +1. Kromm’s notes suggest 13.

3. Speed bonus.
Thri-kreen have a base movement of 18 compared to a humans 12. That’s 1.5 times as fast.
With the minimum dex of 17, they get an armour class bonus of -3. That’s 3 points of improvement over the average human.
Thri-kreen have the special ability to dodge missiles.

I folded all of this into a high speed score.

4. IQ, WILL and Per modifiers
Thri-kreen have a -1 to INT and a +1 to WILL, making them less intelligent and more wise than the average human.

5. DR 5 (can’t wear armour -40%) [15] TKoA has this as AC 8, but I believe that got errated in sage advice, and in 2nd ed reverts back to AC 5. DR 5 is giant tortoise level.

6. Extra attacks 4 [100] It might be worth putting a limitation on the last 3 levels, since if they’re using a weapon they can only make 2 attacks, 1 bite + 1 weapon attack.

7. Super Jump 2 [20]; Super Jump 1 (Vertical only -25%) [8] With a speed of 8 this gives 52 feet horizontally and 25 feet 4 inches vertically.

8. Vibration Sense [10].

9. Temperature Tolerance 10 [10]
Thri-kreen can keep hunting throughout the midday heat and cold desert nights.






EDIT: Revised version:
Athasian Thri-kreen [333]
ST +5 (NFM -40%, SM+2 -20%) [15]; DX +3 [60]; IQ -1 [-20].
Speed +2.25 [45], WILL +2 [10], Per +2 [10].

Advantages: Afflication: Paralyzing poison (Follow-up: Sharp teeth +0%, Melee attack, No parry -35%, Paralysis +150% [22]; Doesn’t Sleep [20]; DR 5 (can’t wear armour -40%) [15]; Extra Arms +2 [20]; Extra attack (Single Skill: Bite, -20%) 1 [20]; Extra attacks (Single Skill: Claws, -20%) 3 [60]; Racial Memory (Reliable +8, +40%) [21]; Reduced Consumption 3 (water only -50%) [3]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Sharp Claws [5]; Super Jump 2 [20]; Super Jump 1 (Vertical only -25%) [8]; Temperature Tolerance 10 [10]; Thri-Kreen Hunting Talent 4 [20]; Very Fit [15]; Vibration Sense [10].
Disadvantages: Callous [-5]; Compulsive Hunting (15 or less) [2]; Hidebound [-5]; Odious Racial Habit (eats other sapients) [-15]; Racial Reputation: Hated by Elves -4 penalty, Large Class, Always recognised [10]; Sense of Duty: Clutch [-5]; Short lifespan [-10]; Stuttering (Not vs. own race -50%) [-7].
Racial Learned Skills: Survival (Desert) [1], Tracking [1]
Taboo Traits: Cannot swim [0]

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Elf [105]
Attribute Modifiers: DX +3 [60];
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: HP -1 [-2]; WILL -2 [-10]; Basic Speed +0.25 [5]
Advantages: Acute Vision +2 [4]; Extended Lifespan 1 (Only X1.5 -50%)[1]; Infravision [10]; Intuition (Reflexive +40%; Reliable +8, +40%) [27]; Long Legs [10]; Magery 1 [15]; Temperature Tolerance 2 [2].
Disadvantages: Claustrophobia (15 or less) (Takes extra time 8 [x256], -80%) [-1]; Demophobia (15 or less) (Takes extra time 8 [x256], -80%) [-1]; Easy to Kill 2 [-4]; Impulsiveness (6 or less) [-20]; Racial Reputation (-2 with everyone outside tribe, always) [-10].
Perks: No Endurance rolls for Running [1].
Racial Skill Bonus: Running +3 [6]
Racial Learned Skills: Running 16 HT+6* [12]
*Includes Racial Skill Bonus.
Taboo Traits: Agoraphobia, Honesty, No Sense of Humor, Truthfulness and Workaholic.
Common Advantages: Intuition (Inspired +100%) [+15];

Notes: The intuition is instead of a bonus to IQ:
Acute Vision +2 [4];

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I'd strongly recommend using the Clopterrans from DF as a thri-kreen base template to tweak slightly for dark sun. In particular, Jurgen, your thri-kreen probably need horrific appearance, disturbing voice, and extra attack 1. Low tech level is probably important as most thri-kreen seem to be TL 0 nomads.

Also, psionic powers.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

With an average height of 11 foot 9 inches that should be Size Modifier +2.

Also ST +10 seems too weak, based on the max lift of their minimum strength in AD&D their ST would be around 26, based on the GURPS' (Cube root of weight) X2 it should be ST 23. If you want them to act like fantasy giants who ignore the silly square cube law, I would give them a minimum of ST 23 + Lifting ST +10, making one half giant able to lift another half giant as well as one human can lift another human.


EDIT:
With a maximum lifes span of 220 years, some degree of longevity/extended lifespan might be in order.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Alternatively, takes the stats for an Ogre from DF3, add Chummy, bump up SM to +2, and remove the hideous appearance and tone down the social stigma.

Way I figure is you can exactly copy everything D&D said all the species could do. That will likely put racial templates well beyond what is affordable for lower point games and require some pretty convoluted builds. Or you can use lower-point builds that capture the important stats and the "feel" and actually have a party with all the different races in it built on no more than 200 points, and mostly use stuff that's already been published. Personally I prefer the second approach.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I don't see a need to keep the point totals low, Dark sun wasn't noted as a low powered setting:

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

"Post-apocalypse fantasy."

Besides, 3rd level is about on par with GURPS' normal "heroic" starting point of 150 pts, IME. Also, if you start low, you can always go to higher point totals. It's harder to come the other way.

Finally, it lets you convert DF resources with only slight tweaking.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I don't see your point, Exalted is also "Post-apocalypse fantasy." EDIT: "Post-apocalypse fantasy." doesn't mean low point totals any more than "gritty" does.

3rd level is 3 times the normal starting level in AD&D.

Much of DF doesn't seem appropriate for Dark Sun.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

It means it's pretty likely that someone is going to want to run a low-powered game, IME. Soon as you put in "post-apoc" some people are going to want to run games about surviving in the harsh environment. You should ALSO be able to support psionic chambara mutant dinosaur combat in the fallen ruins of a magical past, but that's a hell of a lot easier to start low and build up to than it is to go the other way.

Sure, but D&D starts you out as incompetents. You don't translate mechanics directly between the two systems.

But a lot of it is stealable with slight tweaking and will save you work.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

And I still don't see your point, high point games aren't incompatible with games about surviving in the harsh environment:





I'm point out that 3rd level characters feel alot more powerful than 1st level characters. This doesn't involve "translating mechanics directly between the two systems" in any way.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making.

Yes, you can have high point gritty games. But it tends to break the SoD of players (IME) if everyone in the setting is a high point character. And if you make racial templates all hundreds of points, why the heck are humans the dominant species in the setting?

But the equivalent GURPS characters are (roughly) the book's stock "beginning adventurer" point recommendation. Just because GURPS starts you out as actually competent in a few areas doesn't mean that GURPS characters in GURPS Dark Sun need to feel stronger than "standard" GURPS characters, so long as you still end up in roughly the same ballpark of competence as their D&D equivalents.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

If your point wasn't related to "surviving in the harsh environment" then why did you bring it up?

Why? Do you get upset with the number points elephants have in ST? Why is any racial point total more believable than any other?

If city accountants are worth more points than ghetto thugs, how the heck are are the thugs able to win fight against them? It's not just the point totals, it's how those point are spent. Half giants aren't going to dominate the world no matter how strong they are, because they are stupid. Thri-Kreen are the best at their niche (survival), but that doesn't translate to being the best able to rule the world.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Most post-apoc games tend to play up the "surviving the environment" angle. They take away any safety net of civilization to fall back on. Now, you can do high point games in which not only are you capable of surviving the environment, but can also beat up the aforementioned psychic mutant dinosaurs. But ideally you also want enough flexibility to allow people to play games in which they JUST worry about the environment and getting a caravan from one city-state to the next.

You are talking about how high point games can also be gritty. Yes. Sure. That has nothing to do with keeping point totals low enough for non-humans that you can play a campaign with a thri-kreen and a caravan guard and not have the caravan guard be able to beat up psychic mutant dinosaurs in addition to surviving the environment when the game was only supposed to be about surviving the environment.

Because elephants aren't fellow sentients directly competing with us for resources in a world where said resources are scarce.

The thri-kreen are freakin super-velociraptors that eat other sentients, as you've written them.

The point is, the way you've written the racial templates allows you to play the types of games you like, but doesn't allow people to play lower-power games with all the races if they want lower power levels. That works fine if we're playing the game you like. It's less useful as a generic conversion for whoever may wander along.

I mean, really. What point totals do you play at? Look at the DF templates. They're 250 points, and scarily competent though most of them neglect survival aspects. Even tacking on another 50 points of survival abilities, any game of yours that includes thri-kreen will also allow regular humans as competent as DF folks. Is that really the most useful generic racial template? It allows you to play the types of games you're interested in, sure. Does it allow others maximum choices in the types of games they want to play?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Going on with the topic:

I think that preserving/defiling should work with "threshold magic." But changing the catastrophes to work with taking further steps along the defiling route towards the (insert name of undead creature that comes from doing too much defiling; I forget what its name was, and how exactly it worked with defiling...). Basically, the more you defile, the more the taint tends to build up in you.

Possibly giving each terrain a certain amount of mana that can be safely drawn per second. Either take the time to gather by spreading it around, or simply over-gather and wipe out several hexes (and risking picking up points towards a disadvantage).

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

"You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making." Where did this obsession with psychic mutant dinosaurs come from? You seem to be trying to put words into my mouth.
"You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making." And your point is? I haven't disagreed with the "JUST worry about the environment" angle. Howeve, the Thri-Kreen template isn't designed to worry about crossing the wastelands, because that's exactly what they're good at! Have you read Thri-Kreen of Athas?

Yes, they are. Have you read Thri-Kreen of Athas?

I've written the templates with the goal of verisimilitude. Some come out high when converted to GURPS.
I'm not suggesting a "generic" conversion, I'm making a Dark sun conversion.
I'm looking at the Banestorm Racial templates. They range from -60 points to 627!, yet people still mange to play in that setting some how.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Really? We can't be civil anymore?

Because Dark Sun has psychic mutant dinosaurs that you fight. That's what higher level games tend to be about. And overthrowing god-kings. And looting ruins of ancient magical kingdoms.

No. I'm saying that a conversion should allow people to play all different types of games, from trying to cross the desert from one city-state to another Caravan to Ein Arris style, to going all jackie chan with a sharpened shinbone on something that outmasses you by 5 tons in an arena, to facing down the closest thing to a god the setting has.

They don't need three extra attacks that D&D says they get. They don't need to jump exactly as high as D&D says they do. They don't need lots of things. You just need to model "big insect-man who is a social misfit." They don't need to be 300 points. They can be, sure. But I think you're snagging too many D&D mechanics to model, and making it so that in a GURPS Dark Sun game with the same approximate power level as a beginning D&D Dark Sun game, people can't afford to play the same character options that they can in D&D.

Thumbed through it back in the day.

Which is more important? That things in GURPS exactly match the description of things in D&D, or that people can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D?

Are you making a Dark Sun conversion for just your preferred power level? Or for anyone who wants to play a Dark Sun game at a variety of power levels? I think the second is more useful.

People don't play Djinn. The standard Dark Sun races were playable by everyone. Look at Banestorm racial templates. All the ones that you might normally expect to see in a game are under about 150 points.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I've been thinking about this as well. One issue is that there are differing explanations between the two boxed sets when precisely you drain the energy from the plants - during the preparation of the spells, or during the casting. Personally, I think it would be neat if both options were possible, for defilers - this makes them more versatile and sneaky, and thus it's harder for preservers to show that they are different than those vile defiling bastards.

So here is how it works for preservers: They have an Energy Pool (with a base point value of 3 points per level, as usual). It comes with the limitation "Preparation Required" - for each point of energy they want to recover for it, they need to spend some time in natural surroundings, depending on just how fast they recover energy as described in the Recover Energy spell. Since this always takes at least one minute per energy point, and thus the time they do this will usually be at least 10 minutes or more (depending on the size of their Energy Pool), I will make this a -30% limitation, bringing the cost to 2.1 points per level.

Preservers start out with an Energy Pool of 15 worth 32 points (well, technically it's 31.5 rounded up). From this we subtract the Secret (Possible Death) disadvantage, which is worth -30 points, so they only need to pay 2 points for this.


Defilers have two options. They can draw upon the Energy Pool at any time, but it counts as a Nuisance Effect with a -4 reaction penalty and it's obvious too, for -25%. Furthermore, it strains the body, costing either 3 FP or 1 FP and 1 HP, for a further -15% and a total limitation of -40%. They can also meditate somewhere in peace and quiet like preservers. In that case they can gather energy four times as fast as an equivalent preserver would, thus reducing the Preparation Required limitation to -15%. But they still have the Nuisance Effect, so the limitation for that is still -40%. Thus, Defiler Energy Pools cost 1.8 points per level.

Defilers start out with an Energy Pool of 17 for 31 (or 30.6, rounded up) points. After subtracting their Secret, this is reduced to 1 point. At the GM's option, players of defilers might take appropriate "creepy" disadvantages like Disturbing Voice or Uncanny Features even after character creation and exchange their points for additional levels of Energy Pool.


Preservers can also use either defiling option at any time - which might be very tempting as it allows quick access to needed energy. However, this is not worth any additional points since it is a trap leading down to defilerdom. For every 20 points of energy a preserver uses in this way to power spells, he gets a -1 to the casting rolls of all non-defiling spells. The GM might allow this penalty to recover over time, possibly by requiring extended quests into pristine wilderness areas while not using any magic at all.


How does this sound?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Threshold magic works, or maybe a modification of Leech + Lifebane. Plus really high level defilers could actually suck the life right out of people. Part of why I kind of like taking the advantage route, you can start with plant Leech + Magery and upgrade to non-limited Leech once you're powerful enough.

Are you talking about turning into something besides a Dragon from too much defiling? Turning into a dragon is supposed to be REALLY hard.

I'd take a look at the plant density/sanctity rules from GURPS: Plant Magic and use that to determine local available energy.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

If you find that sentence offensive, why did you start using it?
I haven't been going for exactly matching the description of things in D&D, only the feel.
They can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D, just not at any point total. The same is true with Jürgen's templates.
I've already answered this question, I'm going for verisimilitude, for people who actually want to play in Dark sun rather than a generic DF knock off. The elf template I posted was about 1/3 the point total of the Thri-reen one.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Point of reference:

“In addition, the dragon can store magical energy in its body for use at a later time. This gives it the freedom to use its spells in even the most barren of wastes and the incentive to roam over wide expanses of desert in search of food.”
1st Ed Dark sun boxed set, The Wanderer’s Journal page 12.

So you might want to limit storing magical energy to high level defilers.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Why can the Preservers use defiler stuff? Shouldn't that be an alternate ability? Did preservers have to suck juice from their surroundings? I thought they powered all their spells with their own energy? Why can't defilers chose to suck energy slowly like Perservers, eliminating the nuisance effect of the reaction penalty.

I like the taint mechanic on Defiling magic.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Well, the Dark Sun Revised boxed set says on p. 28 of "The Age of Heroes":

"There are two steps to casting a spell on Athas. First, a wizard must gather the energy to power the spell from the plant life around him. Then he performs the actions necessary for releasing the spell—the usual somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell come into play in the second step."
"This gathering of energy occurs outside of game time, during the same period of time as a wizard is memorizing his spells."

So the two works are inconsistent on this matter. I thought it would be interesting to split the distance and permit both. This also increases the overall paranoia level - are you sure that the guy in front of you is a preserver as he claims just because his spell didn't destroy the plants around him right now? Perhaps he just gathered the energy at an earlier point...

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I don't find the sentence offensive. I find people repeating things I said several times in a row slightly annoying. It's fairly classic schoolyard taunting.

I think your conversion is sacrificing playability for the sake of accuracy to the original.

So to be clear, what are the point totals for games that you allow players to play Thri-Kreen in? Keeping in mind that their racial template alone costs more than being a Navy SEAL?

I've done a fair amount of work converting Shadowrun. According to SR, there are all kinds of things mages can do. If you made it so that every mage in GURPS SR had the same abilities every mage in normal SR had, just buying the basic abilities of being a mage (not even factoring in IQ) would probably run around 150-200 points. More like 500 if we don't cheat by saying that some properties of astral projection are due to the astral plane obeying different laws. Yet we have SR games about street level gangers with mages in them. Classic examples of low-point characters.

Now, you can convert all of the abilities SR says mages have. Or you can select some key abilities that are the core essence of "mage" in SR and make all the rest optional. I personally think the stories that unfold in a typical game in that setting are what you want to emulate. To me, it's more important to allow people the same character choices at the same relative power levels than to faithfully model every trait from the original setting. I don't have a problem with letting them upgrade to the full-on version in a higher point game, but I usually make those purchasable abilities, optional lenses, etc.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Canonically, all arcane magic on Athas (with the exception of that "sun magic" that Sadira from the novel uses) draws energy from plants. It's just that preservers do so very slowly and carefully, not taking more than they need and allowing the plants to recover quickly (possibly even using subtle magics or mundane means to boost the health of the plant in other ways to make up for it). They literally "preserve" the plants they drain the energy from.

As described, defiling has a lot of similarities with drug addiction - they get a "rush" as they drain the energy of plants. Preservers know how to defile - they know how to drain energy from plants, after all - but they have carefully trained themselves to restrain from sucking all the energy out of them. This requires a lot of focus and willpower - and once you are used to the rush of energy of defiling, it becomes harder and harder to maintain. Defilers possibly can become defilers again (there is even a sorcerer king who managed that), but this requires very long periods of being "cold turkey" before they regain the balance needed. They can't switch between defiling and preserving at will any more.

I allowed that option for preservers because I wanted to offer them temptation - but I didn't want to make it cost any additional points for them because I didn't want to punish preservers who remain "virtuous" by charging points for an option they will never use.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I always preferred the explanation that the only difference (at low power levels) between preservers and defilers is how they chose to gather the energy to power spells. Any mage can chose to pull energy from the environment around him. It makes it a very slippery slope and the reactions of Rakad Q. Public to mages a bit more rational.

I do like your taint mechanic though. Kind of represents the crutch defilers develop always taking the easy way.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Ah, didn't realize that. I thought they were pulling energy from within.

You'd model this with a quest etc and spending the CP to make up the difference between their current energy pool and the cost of the same pool for a preserver?

So at what point does a preserver become a defiler? When their defiler taint hits -10?

Also, what other supernatural abilities are you planning on? Obviously psi. Keeping druids and the elemental clerics? I always had trouble figuring out how exactly to do Templars. Though Divine Power might be handy....

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I'm not sure if I'd require CPs per see (it would be equally justifiable that their Energy Pool just drops to the lower value corresponding to the CPs it is worth).

But a quest would certainly be in order. I'd ask: "You realize that you have screwed up, and want to rebuild your life as a preserver. How do you plan on bringing your life into balance again?"

The quest is then based on these answers, and it can be as deep as any story about a recovering drug addict.

Sounds like a good value.

All of the above, although I am contemplating using different mechanics to better distinguish druids and elemental clerics. Druids often sound like they would work well with Path magic, while clerics might work use the elemental powers from GURPS Powers. I should probably read the supplements on clerics again...

I'm not quite sure how to represent Templars yet. Their powers always sound like something that is granted, not something that is learned, so again Powers with the Pact limitation would probably work well.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Nitpick, that should be "draws energy from living things" it's possible to power magic from your own life-energy, or the life-energy of other animals and people, as well as plants.


IIRC, I believe Hamanu was able to switch between the two types in "The rise and fall of a dragon king".

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Whenever they could afford the template.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I THIHK it's called a "t'liz"?

But more than that, have stuff like "defiler aura" and such.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

IIRC, the author of RAFOADK received no support from the RPG folks at WOTC. As such, the canon-ness of the book must be judged very, very, very loose.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Here is the defiling rules that I've used - both defilers and preservers use the same mechanic - threshold magic. Differences between their threshold limit and recovery. It allows you to use the same system and temps preservers to defile!

Dark Sun has two major styles of magic: defiling and preserving. Both are modeled on Threshold magic as described in T76, except that it uses a special calamity chart with modifiers based on terrain.

Defiling Magery [costs 2 for level 0; 4 for each additional level] gives the wizard a threshold of 0 with a recovery of 6 energy points per day.

Magery 0 (Reduced Threshold 5, -50%; Slower Magical Recovery 1, -10%. T79)

Preserving Magery [costs 5 for level 0; 10 for each additional level] gives the wizard a threshold of 30 and a recovery of 8 energy points per day.

Magery 0 (B66)

Both defilers and preservers can purchase increases or decreases in their recovery or threshold totals, although only preservers are likely to increase their threshold total. Preservers also tend to take a Vow (Do not exceed threshold limit) [-10].

Exceeding Threshold – Defiling
When a wizard casts a spell on Athas, they draw power from the world around them. Every spell caster has a small reservoir of power within themselves, based on their interaction with the world. Preserver training allows a spell caster to expand on their reservoir; Defilers do not spend the time to learn, choosing rather to supplement their power by taking from their environment. Once a spell caster exceeds their threshold, they roll on the Defiling Calamity table. They roll 3d and add 1 for every full 5 points by which tally exceeds threshold after this casting. This roll is further modified by the terrain the spell caster happens to be in. If the Calamity check total is 29+, then the spell automatically fails unless the caster can make a Will roll at a penalty equal to the bonus of the Calamity check.

Effects of Defiling
Defilers absorb every bit of life energy they can hold, with the result that the land they tap into is leeched and left barren of nutrients, incapable of supporting plant life. Plants in the defiled area die and turn to ash when the life spark is removed. Unlike with natural death, however, the decaying process occurs in an instant, and nothing remains within the dead ash to continue the life cycle—plants killed by defiling magic return nothing to the soil and don’t revert to life-giving fertilizer when they die. The land becomes barren for one year before enough of a life spark is created to sustain growth again.

Defiler Terrain Modifier
The abundance of life in a certain type of terrain effects how much of an area is harmed by defiling. Apply the below modifiers to a calamity roll.

Lush Terrain (forests, large gardens, parks) -3
Abundant Terrain (verdant belts, grasslands, mud flats) -2
Fertile Terrain (oases, scrub plains) +0
Infertile Terrain (stony barrens, rocky badlands, bare mountains) +3
Barren Terrain (boulder fields, sandy wastes, salt flats) +5

Defiling Calamity Table
Roll Area of Defiling
3–5 1 yard
6 2 yards
7 3 yards
8 4 yards
9 5 yards
10 6 yards
11 7 yards
12 9 yards
13 10 yards
14 11 yards
15 12 yards
16 13 yards
17 14 yards
18 15 yards
19 16 yards
20 17 yards
21 20 yards
22 22 yards
23 24 yards
24 26 yards
25 28 yards
26 30 yards
27 32 yards
28 34 yards
29 36 yards
30 38 yards
31 40 yards
+1 +5 yards

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

That is an important question from the perspective of creating a believable world, and should be answered.

1. The Cleansing Wars. The surviving non-humans may well have not recovered from the near genocide they endured. This won't apply to Humans, Halflings or Thri-kreen, for different reasons.
2. High point totals don't always translate to racial world domination, it depends on how those points are spent. Here's a racial breakdown:

Dwarves: long-term planners, hard working, most likely to dominate the setting, I'd be guessing low birth rates as to why not (weakest explanation)

Elves: "they detest hard labor and will never voluntarily set out to construct anything more durable than a tent or small hut", no racial unity, no long term planning but instead thinking only for "the now", not a settled existence allowing them to build up material assets, not a recipe for setting domination.

Half-Elves: Outcast hybrids with no support group. Probably not a high point total either.

Muls: If they weren't rare, sterile hybrids, then they might have more of an impact on the setting.

Half-Giants: Big and tough, but stupid and foolish is not a recipe for setting domination.

Halflings: They live in the most fertile place in the region, so in one sense they are the dominant species (most resources), and I don't even see them having a vastly high point total.

Thri-kreen: Short lifespan, IQ 9 + Hidebound and compulsive hunting doesn't seem like they'd change from their nomadic existence (which is already basically their ideal existence).

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

@ tetrahedron:

I think the problem most people will have with your system is, it has the same problem that all versions of D&D Dark Sun have had (well, 2E, 2E revised, and both Dragon and Athas.org 3.0E/3.5E versions... not sure of 4E version).

It puts a divide between defilers and preservers, when there should be a spectrum. Yes, defilers will all too often just be people who were never taught any better--that's the default after the Cleansing Wars (after the purge of the preservers). But there will also be preservers who will be tempted into defiling "just in emergencies."

All of which leads me into saying (after reviewing Threshold Magic in Thaumataology and seeing that you've set up the Threshold Magery up properly... :-P) that you should might want to allow multiple gradations (and multiple paths...) between 100% Preserver and 100% Defiler.

So, for instance, you might want a THM ("Threshold Magery") that costs 9 per level (Reduced Threshold 1 OR Slower Magical Recover 1, for instance), as a preserver gets used to the idea of sapping a little extra from the environment.

Also, maybe start awarding negative points towards disadvantages for particularly high "tallies." So, for instance (totally off the top of my head), every calamity check which exceeds the threshold requires a check against... I dunno, Thaumatology?... at +1 penalty (??) per 5 points above the threshold. Failure means 1 point towards a disadvantage from a list (to be determined). For full-on preservers, that can be points towards reducing the THM. As they get to be full-on defilers, that can be points towards conversion to a T'liz (see Dark Sun MC 2; the athas.org site had rules on becoming a t'liz, IIRC)--or simply picking up the Defiler Aura or what-not.

Still, like the work. :-)

Edit: Also, don't see any mention of how to roll above 23 (18 on 3d, +5 for "boulder fields, sandy wastes, salt flats), on your list there. I think you forgot to include your "repeated casting in one spot" or "+1 per 5 pts above threshold limit" rules...?

Edit 2: I'd also consider taking the reduction in THM costs (as the full-preserver slips towards full-defiler towards full-t'liz...) and letting the player spend them towards some of the minor variations within Thaumatology. For instance, Thaumatology p. 39-40. And if the nascent-defiler wants to work their way back to preserver, they lose these perks to pay for the increased cost of THM.

Oooh, and that could be a way of showing how powerful a defiler is, by having them purchase the difference in Defiler cost-reduced THM from Pure-Preserver full-cost THM. So, for instance, a Preserver Threshold Magery 2 costs 25 points. Whereas let's say a Defiler has a 20% reduction (whatever combination of limitations...), reducing it to 20 points. The five points saved have to be spent on perks for spells (e.g., "Fireball/Increased Range" technique at 5 points). Not sure what to do with the extra mana costs (e.g., "Fireball/Increased Range" at 5pts means that 2x range is +2 mana and +0 effective skill; 5x range is +4 mana and +0 effective skill; 10x range is +6 mana and -1 effective skill; and 20x range is +8 mana and -3 effective skill)...

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

The intent here was to make a spectrum here... it costs much more to learn the ways of a preserver, but they can still defile. Defiling is cheaper, but they can start to by up their threshold by learning preserver techniques... which is what I think you are getting at.

I think I got it in there...

Thanks for the comments Pragmatic. I will think some more on this.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

For the defiling/preserver part, personally, I wouldn't make it a character trait; it's a setting trait.

First, I'd link the local mana level to the quantity of plants in the area. This "mana level" represents the amount of energy any magic user can safely draw from the plants without risk of harming them.

Both preservers and defilers simply have Magery, and follow the normal rules for casting, energy cost, etc. However, no one can learn Energy Reserve for magic*. So, they must either have sufficient Fatigue Points to cast the spells themselves, or...

As a setting feature, all casters can, at any time, access an environmental energy reserve from nearby plants in a process called defiling. If a caster defiles the local area, it kills off all plants in a 1-yard radius per point of energy accessed (or modify results to fit how you view defiling in the setting). Frequent defiling in an area will eventually reduce the local mana level.

Preservers will do their best not to defile as they do not want to kill the plants and want to maintain the local mana levels, taking a long-term view of the power of magic as a whole. Defilers tend to care more about their own personal and immediate power, and thus will freely access this environmental energy without caring for the consequences. Since any magic user can access this at any time, it's a 0 point feature for both defilers and preservers.

I personally then view the use of defiling or not is merely an immediate choice by the mage. You do not need anything else other than a roleplay of their view on immediate power vs long-term mana. Using defiling will be easier of course, and should represent a slipery slope, but players can probably fall down that slope on their own, particularly when forced to use magic frequently in a short period of time, which happens a lot on adventures.

That said, if you do want to have a "game effect" for such corruption, rule that using the local energy directly from plants is addictive, and requires a Will roll with a penalty equal to amount of energy used. Rather than using the actual Addiction disadvantage, I'd use Compulsive Behavior:

Compulsive Defiling (-5 CP): when using magic, the character must make a self-control roll to NOT use local plant energy if it is available.

The first time you fail a Will roll, you gain it at a self-control level of 15, then each subsequent failure drops it by one level, until you reach the worse case of self-control 6. It can be bought off, with sufficient "training" (or quest and magical ritual, whatever you feel appropriate)... but you can regain it each and every time you fail a Will roll when using the energy pool from the plants.


*Optionally, you can learn Energy Reserve for magic, representing those who have better learned to slowly harvest and store the energy from plants over time without killing all local plants immediately. This will reduce the temptation of defiling magic to some extent, but, since a caster would have to pay CP for that Energy Reserve, it does show that defiling is the easy path as it costs them nothing and they can focus their points on spells rather than energy. I guess this depends on how powerful you want to allow preservers to become as it would be impossible for them to cast powerful spells without defiling if they do not have access to an Energy Reserve. Then again, the same effect can be achieved by simply having casters improve their spell skill level until the energy cost to cast is reduced to 0, thus they wouldn't need to drain either. I prefer that route myself to represent powerful spellcasters, which is why I'd not allow Energy Reserve as a player trait, but to each GM his own.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Yeah the ability to suck the life right out of people and even use stolen life force to heal yourself (Nibenay; The Cerulean Storm) really suggests Leech.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Missed that part. :-P Wasn't among the modifiers, and I tend to glance over the text to get to the crunchies. :-)

A slight modification to my "skill-based technique" idea.

Instead of each technique point going towards one modifier/spell combo, which seems cost-prohibitive, how about the following?

Each technique point applies to one additional modifier/spell combo, but the technique bonus to skill penalties tops off as usual at -0. So, for instance, "Increased Range" at technique level 1 applies to 1 spell (as allowed by the GM...), and can cancel up to -1 of skill penalty. At level 2, it applies to 2 spells, and can cancel up to -2 of skill penalties. At level 5, it applies to 5 spells, and can cancel up to -5 of skill penalties. At level 7, it applies to 7 spells, but still only cancels up to -5 of skill penalties (i.e., "Increased Range" is a skill-5 technique, so can only cancel up to -5 of skill penalties).

Barring certain ancient spellcasters in the setting--e.g., the sorceror-kings and some undead--nobody has the Unusual Background to be able to modify spells on the fly (per the "Spell Variation" per spell, or the "Spell Enhancement" per modifier). (Maybe the Royal Defilers for the different city-states, especially Nibenay's defilers...) So I'd be leery of letting the Thau p. 40 "Accurate +3 (+15%) and Increased Range 5x (+20%) [-7 to skill, +7 mana]" come from just ANY spellcaster--nobody below a high-powered NPC has that much training... Make 'em buy the techniques if they want those combos. (So "Accurate" +3 to apply, as I stated above, to 3 different spells, and Increased Range 5x, to apply to 4 different spells, and having Ice Bolt be one spell in common between the two, thereby being able to cast Ice Bolt (Accurate +3, Increased Range 5x) at -0 skill and +7 mana, for an additional 7 character points. (Or even Ice Bolt (Accurate +1, Increased Range 1x (1 point, not enough to get to 2x)) at -5 skill and +7 mana, for only 2 extra character points.)

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Oooh...

Energy Reserve as a way of "drawing power at time of 'spell preparation'"... That's... interesting.

I don't think it'd work with the Threshold Magic that I like for defiling, as there's already the Threshold limit (0 to 30+). But outside of THM systems, it might be a good way to say that there's the level at which an arcane caster can draw before starting to defile. Since it refreshes at 1 pt per 10 minutes, it can show the desperation versus determination of Dark Sun (i.e., "I've cast out all the spells I can without defiling, but I'm still being pursued; do I cast more, or let myself be killed?").

Hmmm... Bears some thinking...

***************

In a Threshold Magic system, it costs 5pts per +20% to increase beyond the campaign default level (so, as discussed above, 5pts per 6 threshold limit). That's the equivalent of (5 pts divided by 3pts/ER) 1.67 ER, which renews 1 ER every 10 minutes (or faster, with Recover Energy; but then Recover Energy would also risk defiling, wouldn't it...?). Hmmm, bigger margin for combat, or more often smaller margin...

Might work with some tweaking...

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

So what do people think of the 4E Dark Sun, in terms of the templars? Apparently, they become "sorcerer-king pact" warlocks, drawing their magic through pacts with the SKs...

And what psionic powers (from the aptly-named "Psionic Powers") advantages would seem fitting for Athas...? (Heck, I'm half-tempted to go through The Will and the Way, Complete Psionicist Handbook, (Expanded) Psionics Handbook, etc., to see how badly I can screw up converting some of those powers. :-P)

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I'd personally prefer to model it by giving both Preservers and Defilers teh same type of "mixed" Magery; Any mage can cast from their own Fatigue, or drawenergy from outside, but everyone's Thresh is 0, and the recovery rate is based on the area, rather than the wizard; How large an area is affected varies by the Calamity table, like the one Terahedron posted above. That area will recover mana at a rate determined by it's lushness, e.g.
Lush Terrain (forests, large gardens, parks) 3/day
Abundant Terrain (verdant belts, grasslands, mud flats) 2/day
Fertile Terrain (oases, scrub plains) 1/day
Infertile Terrain (stony barrens, rocky badlands, bare mountains) 1/2 days
Barren Terrain (boulder fields, sandy wastes, salt flats) 1/3days
(With thanks to tetrahedron for the categories)

Further, I would add various Disadvantages, or even metatraits with some advantageous features as results on the calamity tables, probably starting around 10-12.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

That's what I thought. Defiling should be tempting to wizards - they should constantly have to struggle between doing the right thing and the easy thing. And since this is a world without cosmic forces of Good and Evil, there is no karmic reward for sticking to preserving magic - unlike classical demonic bargains or other supernatural corrupting forces. If a preserver makes it to the end of the road and to the ascension to avangion status, it is because he truly believes that sticking to preserving is the right thing to do, and not because he fears divine judgement.

Yes, but the book was awesome - as were the other Dark Sun novels by Lynn Abbey, which I count among the best gaming fiction I know.

Besides, Hamanu didn't switch to preserving. He couldn't. Instead, he refused to use defiling magic any more than absolutely necessary (usually using his formidable psionic powers instead), and usually drew upon his own life energies instead when he had to. He tried to draw upon the guardian spirit of Urik, but the spirit rejected him because of his draconic nature. Thus, it required Pavek to draw the spirit out.

Spoiler: At the end of the novel, in the far-future epilogue, Hamanu probably was purged of his draconic nature and thus had no more defiling powers. He probably could learn defiling anew, but this didn't strike me as likely.


Speaking of dragons and avangions... This isn't about any rules mechanics, but I have a pet theory about them and this seems as good as any place to mention it.

It is likely that Rajaat, the First Sorcerer, made draconic ascension an inherent part of defiling magic. Sure, he transformed the various Champions (which later became sorcerer-kings) into dragons directly, but later defilers seem to have stumbled across this path often enough to repeat it. So even if there are other ways of transhumanist ascension possible with defiling magic, becoming a dragon seems to be comparably "easy" for defilers of great powers because we never saw any alternatives. Of course, maybe they just stumbled across hints in old texts or by studying the sorcerer-kings. Still, if they had to experiment a lot with incomplete hints, we should surely have seen more variation with such transformations.

But if you see dragons as something deliberately designed by Rajaat and encoded into the very nature of defiling magic itself, it makes a lot of sense, especially if you take the accounts of Hamanu in the novel at more-or-less face value. Dragons are designed as the antithesis of all life - they are killing engines who destroy living things by using their magic and constantly grow powerful in the process, frequently flying into blind, destructive rampages. They are also innately very paranoid and have an extremely difficult time cooperating in any way with their peers.

Or from Rajaat's point of view, dragons - whether the Champions themselves or later defilers rising to that status - will destroy all life by their very nature and once they have destroyed everything else they will destroy each other. Which is rather useful if you want to return Athas to a blank slate before you can bring it back to the world it was in the Blue Age.

But let's remember that Rajaat didn't only create defiling magic - he also created preserving magic and introduced it to the world! So, if he encoded draconic ascension into defiling magic... has he also encoded avangion ascension into preserving magic?

Let's think about this. All published works never hint that there is any other path of ascension available to preservers. Yet there is no real precedent for avangions, apart from Oronis of Kurn (and few know about him). So why should preservers figure out how to turn into avangions independently of each other? If they do so, it must be because it represents a deeper, "universal" truth of preserving.

To figure out what might have motivated Rajaat to do this, let's look at the differences between dragons and avangions. Where dragons are solitary and paranoid, avangions cooperate with each other. Where dragons are engines of destruction, avangions cherish life and loathe taking it, instead spreading new growth wherever they go.

So here is what I think Rajaat's plan was: Once dragons have wiped out all mortal, sapient life (except the halflings that Rajaat presumably protected somehow), the only former humans alive are the last remaining dragons and the avangions. If the dragons fail to kill each other off, the avangions band together and finish the job. Then they begin to restore Athas and continue to do this job for the rest of their immortal lives - but normal humans are gone, and avangions are probably too altered to procreate. Essentially, they are nothing more than tools for the restoration of Athas to its former state, and their mentality might be too pacifistic to wage war upon Rajaat and his works. Humans and the other new races are now truly gone, and Athas becomes ready to be resettled by the halflings.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Although, at least in 4e, there's little good reason to be a defiler at all, AFAICT. Preserving isn't harder in any meaningful way, and the Paragon paths available are equivalent.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Plus wasn't the very first sorcerer king that got cacked (can't remember his name) attempting to basically pull the life out of the entire crowd at the arena?

I like it. Long term bio-magical terraforming tools.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Well, while I like quite a few things they did with 4E, others were done to simply shoehorn something into the existing rule system.

And in that case, I feel free to ignore it. My goal is to create a flavorful Dark Sun experience grounded in the GURPS ruleset, and thus I will just pick whatever sounds coolest. So, what works better for me and my games - that defiling is seen as a quick and tempting path to more power, or not?

For me, the former is far more interesting.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Yeah, I never played a wizard in 2e Athas (Thri-Kreen are too cool not play; so everytime I played Dark Sun I was a Ranger) so I don't recall at all how it works. I was just trying to figure out the point of 4e Defiling, as far as I can tell (unless I missed something) there isn't one.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

It was Kalak. And how Hamanu describes it in his story, human life forces is apparently... very... delicious. It takes a considerable effort of will for him not to kill a teenager who was young and full of life.

So, yes - dragons as engines of destruction and enemies of life. Even the sorcerer-kings who have cities to maintain need to be very careful about their destructive urges.

Yeah, and it fits so well. Of course, history played out somewhat different than Rajaat anticipated - but it would make a lot of sense to give avangions some mental traits which push them into that direction.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

They needed less XP per level to advance - on a par with the thief, IIRC.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I can see making them SM+1 given their height and especially length. In fact, I should probably do give them that in the next version. However, SM+2 seems a bit much, given that they don't have nearly as much bulk as half-giants. Furthermore, I wouldn't give them increased ST, either - they never got any Strength bonuses in the original material, and much of their musculature is probably used to support that heavy exoskeleton as well as their leaping muscles. Furthermore, I consider +2 DX to be plenty - that's already very, very dexterous (the same goes for your elves).

I will have to think about the other elements in your list. I think your writeup would make for a fine "Dungeon Fantasy"-style enemy writeup - a dangerous foe of the desert. However, for a base racial template this is probably a bit much, and I would prefer it if they remain playable for ordinary "heroic" campaigns at 150 points or less.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

You're right they don't have as much bulk as half-giants. I'm just following GURPS rules for determining SM:
Their longest dimension is 10 foot 8 inches to 11 foot.

Well 3rd ed gave them Strength +2, but one of thes reason I gave them:
ST +5 (NFM -40%, SM+2 -20%) [15];
is that they mass 450lbs -470 lbs. Think about what that should mean for slams. You could drop that to HP +5 (SM+2 -20%) [8]; which saves 7 points.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Less focus on the details, more focus on the feeling.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Templates are made of details, the emergent properties of these details contribute to the feeling.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Right. But trying to do exact conversions of AD&D material to GURPS are generally doomed. (For instance, try to get non-supers characters to fight a converted Great Wyrm red dragon...)

Within the setting of Dark Sun, what is the feeling of Thri-kreen?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Me and him did this tango earlier. Better just to move on, I think.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

As someone who just picked up the Dark Sun books for 4e and prefers his GURPS games to be under 200 points, I must echo this preference. I don't think level bonuses should factor much into translation here, as GURPS advancement is much more subtle and granular than any edition of D&D. And if any and all Thri-kreens could easily kill or render useless my 150 pt PCs, I'm simply not going to use those write-ups. At all.

So, NineDaysDead, you can keep doing your thing. You clearly aren't considering low-level adventures in Athas a real possibility for long-term play, and that's fine.

But Jürgen, please keep your values a bit more tempered, as you've been doing, so those of us who like low-powered games can have a ready resource for doing GURPS campaigns in Athas.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Here's my 1 hour back of the envelope conversion:

You can trim some points by switching to Infravision to everyone who has Dark Vision and play with some social disadvantages. You could save quite a bit on the thri-kreen template by making the poison and super jumping power-ups that older kreen develop and let the players buy it in play. Halflings in particular I'm not really happy with (they're supposed to be unholy terrors) but like I said, back of the envelope calculation. For both the Elves and the Mul with their "endurance ++" stuff I just gave them Very Fit. Aarockra might need some sort of point-break to represent the fact that they lose the use of their top arms when they fly, but I can't figure out how to build that, since they DO have manipulators due to their agile lower claws. I'd strongly recommend giving Pterrans Telepathy 1 talent and replace their Telesend ability with something in Psionic Powers if using that supplement.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Except by RAW, you can't do this unless they also have NFM, which they don't (and shouldn't). You could give them Weak Arms instead.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Rename it "Lower Body Only -40%"

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I don't have time to comment on everything now, but why did you give elves 9! levels of temperature tolerance?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I just kind of winged it, wasn't sure exactly what the final HT levels were gonna be so I threw a bunch on there. The source I had said they don't suffer from mundane temperature extremes. Period. Also it helps them run if they're always comfortable even at higher temps. If I recall correctly Athas regularly gets much hotter than 110. They can't pull their elf run trick if they're sweating bullets in normal afternoon heat.

I'd be happy to drop 5 levels to keep my pentiphilia happy.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Pervert... :-P

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Interesting. If that's kosher why doesn't anything published do it, I wonder? What's the point of Weak Arms, then?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

So I'm kind of a fan of how D&D (and in particular, Dark Sun) treated mental combat.

Anyone convert the harbingers and constructs over?

For example, "The Sword," a specialization of Mind Thrust. Or "The Forest," a specialization of Mind Blank.

What ARE the GURPS assumptions for mental combat? (Book and page citations are enough, I think I have all the books. :-P)

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Closest would be in Supers 126, Duel of the Minds. Basically like physical combat but using mental attributes as stand-ins and damage can result in permanent brain damage.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I've revised some of my templates slightly:

I've also decided to leave the half-giants at SM+1 - smaller than they are represented in AD&D, but larger than the half-giants/goliaths in 4E. This does make them more playable in confined places, and to me playability is a big issue for this conversion. Besides, making then any bigger and stronger would probably be overkill in a world with poor armor.

And regarding the square-cube law and things like that... well, I consider Dark Sun a gritty setting, but not one that should be considered very realistic. After all, this is a world where apparently a perfectly valid way of coping with the burning desert sun is to strip down to your loincloths.


== Dwarf (60 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST +1 [10], HT +2 [20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP +1 [3], HP +1 [2], Will +1 [5].
Advantages: Extended Lifespan 2 [4], Higher Purpose [5], Infravision [10], Magic Resistance 3 [6].
Disadvantages: Stubbornness [-5].
Features: If the dwarf is killed while having failed his Higher Purpose, he will return as an undead banshee haunting his unfinished works.

Notes: The Higher Purpose of a dwarf is referred to as his focus. This is a longer task that requires at least one week to complete, and the dwarf may choose a new one after finishing it.
The Magic Resistance of dwarves works explicitly against wizardly magic only (defiling or preserving). Alchemical potions/fruits work normally.

== Mul (44 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: ST +2 [20], IQ -1 [-20], HT +1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP +3 [6].
Advantages: Less Sleep 2 [4], Lifting ST 3 [9], Very Fit [15].

== Thri-kreen (jeral) (91 points) ==

Attribute Modifiers: DX +2 [40], IQ -1 [-20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move +1 [5], Basic Speed +0.5 [10], Per +2 [10]
Advantages: Affliction 1 (Paralytic Venom: HT; Follow-Up, Teeth or Striker, +0%; Paralysis, +150%) [25], Damage Resistance 4 (can't wear armor, -40%) [12], Doesn't Sleep [20], Extra Arms 2 [10], Fangs [2], Sharp Claws [5], Super Jump 2 [20], Vibration Sense (air) [10]
Disadvantages: Low TL -2 [-10], Odious Racial Habit (eats other sapients) [-15], Short Lifespan 1 [-10], Sense of Duty (Clutch) [-5], Vow (only own what they can carry, no concept of money) [-15].
Quirks: Consider elves delicious, see everything in terms of "the Hunt", test those they interact with to see if they are "worthy".
Features: Cannot jump backwards

Notes: The Fangs represent mandibles.
After being bitten, the victim must make a HT roll. Failure means he’s paralyzed for one minute times his margin of failure.
Thri-kreen may buy up to three levels of Extra Attack for their arms, even in non-cinematic games.
The racial memory can be used to justify knowledge of skills at a very early age. This is distinct from the Racial Memory advantage, which is very common among thri-kreen but not universal (since it represents especially vivid ancestral knowledge as opposed to skills).

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I'm going to put up all "finalized" elements of the conversion up at the GURPS Repository. The racial templates I have already posted can be found here.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Regarding the templates above…

I’m no expert on the Dark Sun setting; I’ve read and enjoyed Troy Denning’s first three books (and own the D&D 4e Campaign Setting and Creature Catalog supplements but remain unimpressed and don’t play D&D much) but a few things occur to me…

Dwarf: Is their focus really an advantage rather than a disadvantage? An exceptional Dwarf may have Higher Purpose but perhaps Obsession would be more common? I also wonder if Stubborn is a good choice, as I imagine that the well ordered Dwarf communities would be somewhat more chaotic with every single individual trying to do things his own way? Perhaps Staid or Dull would be a better reflection of the Dwarf mindset?

Mul: It seems to me this template refers to a Mul gladiator more than the race as such? Having inherited many of the best aspects of his/her parents a Mul has a better starting point to develop the kind of athleticism and strength displayed by Mul gladiators but would not actually be born with Very Fit. It would be very common but not universal among Muls. Also, the IQ penalty would perhaps be better replaced with Social Stigma (Uneducated) and (Valuable Property) for a Mul individual raised in the gladiatorial pits in order to reflect the limitations of such an upbringing? Neither Dwarves nor Humans are stupid, so why would a Mul be?

Thri-kreen: Is the Thri-keen race really so technologically backward? (I have no references, so I ask.) Isn’t the setting TL 2, making them effectively TL 0? As with the Mul I question the IQ penalty as I don’t really see Thri-kreen as any more stupid than other races. Very different, yes, but not stupid. Would perhaps Clueless or some such disadvantage be appropriate to reflect difficulties when interacting with other races, considering their way of viewing everything in terms of a hunter-prey relationship? The pecking order they try to determine in any group by challenging clutchmates would perhaps be worth more than a single point? A Compulsive Behavior perhaps? Regarding their habit of eating sentients, a -3 reaction penalty is a big thing in any sort of social interaction, equivalent to the cost and penalty of Social Stigma (Monster) but without the Intimidate bonus! Is that behavior really viewed with such horror and worth such a stiff penalty on a world like Athas? They’re not really seen as horrible monsters, sending people running in horror, are they? In a more “civilized” setting they probably would be, but on Athas? (Again, I have no references, so I ask.) Perhaps the lesser penalty of Social Stigma (Minority Group/Barbarian) could be an alternative instead?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I agree with those changes, but then I'm normally hesitant to give racial templates mental disadvantages at all--they just seem more suited to individual character generation to me.

The Muls are a magically created slave race, and almost purely made as battle-slaves. It is therefore very appropriate to make their racial template assume they are a gladiator. Remember, a racial template can be counter-acted by the player making a Mul character, but the racial template depicts the average Mul, and the average Mul is a battle slave. Heck, if I had a player who wanted a PC Mul who had never fought in an arena, I'd make them take unusual background on top of paying for the changes.

And as for the reduced IQ, part of the mystery of the Mul is that they don't merely inherit the traits of their parent races--They're bigger, more submissive, and generally susceptible to magical influence(IIRC, DHMBWM), making them distinct from both dwarves and men.

I don't equate low TL with stupidity, even in a setting with inter-cultural trade. It's not that the Thri-Kreen are stupid, they just don't have a developed culture, and so the average Thri-Kreens should all have Low TL. Again, this is a template, so individuals might be familiar with higher tech levels. Also, I believe Athas is still TL 3. Not having metal and being a desert just so happens to make it look and feel like TL 2, but they still have all the TL 3 refined elements when they can afford them, for instance in the cities. So, as a psychologically limited race obsessed with the hunt, I think it fits perfectly for them to default to TL1.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

It's been many years since I've played Dark Sun, but I remember the Muls being regarded as slaves and the like. You may want to give them some social disadvantages to reflect that-- something like Social Stigma (Valuable Property) or negative levels of Status. The same may go for Half Giants.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

In the first two boxed sets, they do get significant bonuses to dice rolls for activities when following their focus, and Higher Purpose maps very well to this. Stubbornness represents that they are very hard to distract from their focus.

I also see the setting as TL2 (there seems to be very little in the way of TL3 tech, and it does tend to have the general feel of the old "gladiator movies"...). And yes, that makes them TL0. The vast majority of thri-kreen are desert nomads, with little interest in more advanced technology. They can learn how to use more advanced tech, but most of them simply don't bother to as they don't see the point.

They are not stupid, but they are very instinct-driven. Most of their starting skills will derive from racial memories instead of something they have actively learned, and since they only live very short lives (they are considered adults at age 5 and are getting old at 25), they rarely develop intellectually very much.

I just made it a part of their 'test those they interact with to see if they are "worthy"' quirk. After all, a Compulsive Behavior is something they would spend a lot of time on, constantly - but in this case, they only do it until a clear hierarchy is established. Thus, it should probably count as a quirk.

I thought about reducing this penalty to -2 as well, but ultimately decided to leave it be. Even though Athas is a very harsh environment, almost all cultures (with the exception of thri-kreen and halflings) still ostracize such behavior strongly.

And everyone needs someone to look down upon, even if this is tempered with fear...

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Problematic, because while many members of these races are slaves (and indeed almost all muls start as such), there are also plenty of free muls and half-giants, and they don't seem to be treated noticeably worse than members of other races. On Athas, slavery is largely a social phenomenon, not a racial one.

Besides, assuming that PC members of these races automatically start as slaves or treated as such probably isn't a good idea, either...

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

It means that PC slave Mul's will have the Social Stigma counting against the disadvantage limit, which doesn't seem fair for a trait that a vast majority of their fellows share.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Still doesn't sit right with me. I mean, in most cases either all PCs will start a campaign as slaves, or none are. In the latter case Mul PCs would have to buy it off, making it pointless. And in the former case all PCs would have to take it, which makes it into a campaign constraint which doesn't count against the disadvantage limit for the rest of the PCs, either.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

There's a difference between them actually being a slave (status -2 + involuntary duty) and everyone they meet assuming they're a slave at first blush (social stigma). Muls fall into the second category because they're so rare anywhere but as slaves.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

I think assuming that they are a slave largely depends on the kind of dress they are wearing. If they dress like a slave, others will assume that they are slaves. If they dress like freemen, people will assume that they are freemen.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

What about the situation where one PC belongs to another or to the party's patron?

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Then he gets the points for that, but it will still count against the disadvantage limit.

While the majority of muls are indeed slaves, many of them seem to have won their freedoms and free muls don't seem to be treated any worse than other freemen. Furthermore, there are very large numbers of human slaves and slaves of other races, so the people of the setting are unlikely to see slavery as an inherent aspect of a particular race - again, slavery is largely a social phenomenon on Athas, not a racial one.

Re: GURPS Dark Sun Conversion
 

Are you going for using Dungeon Fantasy approach or more "realistic"?