Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Ok, I've had an idea spurred from a Russian culture and history class I'm taking... Which is a setting based on folklore and mythology from the Dark Ages.

The biggest problem I'm having with setting up the world it's set in is magic... Ok, magic ability among humans is rare enough it needs unusual background... But how else do I really model a Dark Ages take on magic...?

I'm looking to use the concept templates of dungeon fantasy for most characters which works fine until we hit magic, which in GURPS I just don't have much experience with... I own the books, it's just rare I do a true fantasy game these days...

So, some isues...

Bards: I'd like bards since the tradition fits, but I doubt I want them to use 'magic' per se... Does Bard Song act to much like conventional magic it needs an unusual background to...?

Clerics (ie 'Priests'): Most priests are educated men (and women) of the monotheistic former imperial religion, most aren't magical... Though often they have artistic, medicial, and writing skills most don't. Some however are actually 'mages' and so have powers they attribute to god. Two separate templates? Or one more diverse maybe...? Or possibly Scholar (DF4 pg. 8) Clerics and Mage Clerics built like the main template?

Druid (ie 'Shaman'): A nature oriented Pagan, who either is actually a 'mage' or knows 'secret knowledge' of some sort that people take to be magic... It has the same issue as Clerics... Possibly a sort of 'Artificer (DF4 pg. 5) Shaman and a 'Mage Shaman' built along the main template?

Holy Warriors/Paladins seem fine... unless I've missed something...

Wizards are the big problem though... or maybe not... Is a unusual background enough to make them more 'dark and unusual'? Should I look into creating a Magical Style for them? Or even more then one?

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

I think the most obvious answer is:

->pick up thaumtology, use path/book magic, dissalow use of 'adept' advantages.

Magic is a slow, subtle, but powerful art, deeply seated in ritual, sympathy and contagion. (unfortunately this make 'combat casting' essentially out of the question)

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

My first suggestion would be to ditch the normal GURPS Spell-Magic system altogether. It's great for spell-slinging sorcery in the style of D&D or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but about as "historically authentic" (from the perspective of real-world beliefs about magic) as Star Trek is "scientifically rigorous."

Instead, I'd start with the Path/Book ritual magic system in Thaumatology. Or, if you don't want to have to buy a new book and learn a new system, you might consider requiring all casting to be Ceremonial (but allowing solitary casters to cast ceremonially, instead of requiring a group), and forbid Missile spells (Fireball, etc) and most direct-healing spells (Major/Minor/Great Healing, etc).


I'd get rid of all the powers and magic and make bards a purely social template. You might still use Enthrallment skills, which are cinematic, but not necessarily "magical."


I like the idea of priests being mostly or entirely social/political characters. In a world with real magic, there might be some "holy sorcerers" (the rare mystic who isn't burned as a heretic), and possibly even practicing wizards among the Inquisition (to help them find and combat evil wizards), but no "clerical magic" as defined by the Power Investiture advantage.


Perfect candidate for Path magic ... Path of the Elements, Path of Nature, and maybe the Path of Spirit for a more shamanistic feel.

If you're comfortable with holy powers as written, then they should work fine. Otherwise, most "holy warriors" are probably just regular old knights with Church sanction.


The "classic" wizard would have skill in Alchemy, Occultism, Ritual Magic, Symbol Drawing, and possibly one or more kinds of Hidden Lore. He's not a fireball-tossing artillery piece, but a crafty planner with a magical laboratory, where he tampers with the forces of the universe.

Multiple templates or "styles" could help distinguish different kinds of wizards ... the classic Hermetic Magus isn't the same as the Diabolist/Demonologist, who's different from the Druid (above), etc.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Ok, remember while I own thaumatology, I've never used it... I own all the sub books as well (age of gold, Alchemical Baroque, Magical Styles, Urban Magic). Not a one have I ever had to use... xD

And in folklore some 'sorcerers' do in fact cause instant effects... In the Russian tale of the firebird, Kaschei the Immortal sorcerer changes the beautiful maiden Maryushka into the firebird with the words "Because you are so loath to leave your kindred, a bird you shall be, and no more a maiden fair." That hardly sounds like a ritual magic working to me...

Remember the setting assumes folklore is literally true... and succubi seek to draw forth your life in dreams, 'Faerie Folk' are real (and varied from 'elves' to 'goblins'), as are gremlins and gargoyles. Magic is actually abundant, it's man that is seldom a part of magic.

This is what becomes a problem to represent...

Bards for instance like Taliesin are legendary for feats more than purely mortal... Or the Pied Piper...

I tend to agree that 'artillery mages' are out... Though calling lightning is common enough, though most likely a multiple round effort... Traditional Fantasy is a modern view on folklore era mythology removing the darker foreboding dark ages peoples had and so expressed...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Actually, that can be done under the Path/Book system. That could have been a suspended Shapechange (or whatever it's called) or he could have some Adept levels that allows him to internalize the ritual and casts it quicker.

On the other hand, that ability could be crafted with Powers as well.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Immortal sorcerers may:
1- Have access to the ritual adept talent (while PCs would largely not; say a 100 point UB is required).
2- Have the insane level of skill required to ignore the >-30 penalties for casting instantly, in a non-ritual space, with no ritual trappings (likely translating to more then 100 point spent on the rituals making it roughly simmilar to #1 above)
3- Have thought 'I am going to turn someone into a fire-bird today' when they woke up, prepared the ritual in there home sanctified space, endured some penalty for 'no target', perhaps enchanting there pointed gesture, the phrase they would speak to complete the ritual, or a small token, and just had the effect 'hang' until they found someone suitable. (Having thoughts like that may be pretty common if they also routinely use divinations).

Similarly you can allow limited use of 'called lightning' by PC path/book mages by making the ritual for it enchant a token or other item, which can be activated at a later date (Margin of success will determine how long the token remains 'active'; if you don't like the concept of them carrying around a lot of tokens, say that the ritual will only enchant one at a time, or make them dangerous to carry around (will go off against holder if damaged, if stolen will strike holder, etc)).

Finally if SOME effects are more instant then others; you can design the rituals that way; ignoring the regular requirement for those effects only; or allowing a suitable environmental effect to substitute for one of the other ritual trappings (I had a ritual adept in one of my games who was able to substitute 'rage' and 'pain' for two of the ritual components in his damage path; but as a result of which had to be in close combat with a target, and have been damaged by that target to get it to work at all; basically removing his ability to do any 'artilery mage' type work with ritual magic, but still letting him whip out a good decaying strike, lightning bolt or other neat effect in combat without giving him the full versatility of ritual adept 3 on all his magic).

Side note: Since you have but not fully studied thaumatology I will elaborate the path/book system.

1- it's an open ended system, you have a series of path/book skills, a master skill, and a series of techniques which represent individual spells- like alchemy the techniques are unnecessary if you have the path/book master skill, but reduce penalties for more impressive effects.
2- it requires 3 things to work: time, ritual space, and a ritual; Time is long, minutes to hours, ritual space is sanctified space, and a ritual is the words, lessons, and trappings of the art.
3- Unfortunately there is a lot of work to make the actual effects, since the lists provided are sparse; but there is a 'ritual design' sheet in thaumatology, and when I GM I generally let my PCs build there own rituals with nothing more then a casual 'is this abusive' look on my part.
4- It makes for not overly potent, but EXTREMELY versatile wizards; they can do anything, but they may need an inordinate amount of time, sacrifices, and even then be a dangerous skill roll to get it done. There ability to do anything can be limited by making the scope of the paths more limited. (the GM defines the names and scope of the paths)

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Granted ... but I'd hardly call Koschei an "ordinary" sorcerer -- more like a demon or demigod. Faeries, djinn, and other such supernatural beings were much more apt to create magical effects with the wave of a hand. Mortal magicians had to mix potions, summon/bind/compel spirits, chant the ineffable names of God, etc.

If you were looking for something that looked like that, you could use ritual magic for mortal magicians, and either Powers or standard Spell Magic for supernatural beings.


I'd say that, in the case of a bard, Enthrallment skills could probably cover most of that. For the heroic feats of warriors, various cinematic traits (Weapon Master, Flying Leap, Power Blow, etc) should do the trick. For genuinely holy characters, I'd say that advantages like Blessed, (Faith) Healing, and True Faith are probably more appropriate than spells.


The Path of the Elements has something just like that -- call down a lightning bolt with a ritual, rather than shooting it from your hand with a mere word and gesture.

Anyway, YMMV of course. Path/Book magic is the best gaming representation of real-world occult beliefs that I've seen, but it might not be the right fit for what you're looking for. It's how I'd do an "Authentic Folklore is Real" campaign, but it's certainly not the only way.

That's the awesomeness of GURPS! :)

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Well true many 'mages' were not 'sorcerer Kaschei the Immortal'... I don't think we want many of them... xD

He was just the first to come to mind, Merlin works just as well, but he doesn't throw fireballs either... Many tales have human magic users who become less human, most often for attempts of becoming immortal...

Since I've been looking through thaumatology I also glanced at Assisting Spirits, which may be interesting for Shaman (losing 'humanity for 'power' in a sense)... Bards, sorcerers, and shaman could be an interesting collection... Each using a different set of rules... and certain Clerics who are really mages, most likely mages who act as their 'miracle workers' and saints...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

That's a good point ... by the time you're getting to the level of a Koschei/Kaschei or a Merlin, you're usually not talking about mere humans anymore. Merlin was supposed to be a cambion (half-demon, the child of a nun and an incubus, IIRC). Gandalf -- a literary figure rather than a legendary one, but cut from the same cloth as Merlin -- was more like a kind of angel ('Mythrandir').


That sounds like a fun campaign to me!

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

So, Koschei is much like classical fantasy lich: he has a phylactery with his "Death" (an egg with a needle) and often have lich appearance (skeleton or spirit within plate armor). Thus, you can seek some inspiration in lich template from Magic and also see prerequisites for such spell for details about his power level and abilities.

Also you may see some inspiration of Dark Age action and magic in Slavish-fantasy books like "The Witcher" series by Sapkovsky (and the computer game based on it) or "Wolfhound" series by Marya Semenova.

Also about supernatural mages. There are not only "evil" high-powered wizards but also neutral like Baba-Yaga or even "good" like Vasilisa The Beautiful/The Wisest.

Also there are plenty of supernatural creatures: evil (imps, dragons like Gorynych Serpent - some hybrid of Hellenic Hydra and classical European Dragon), neutral (forest/swamp/river sprites) and good (Firebird, The Humpbacked Horse and so on) ones.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Cool ... does Koschei have an origin story? Where did he come from -- was he originally human, or was he a supernatural being from the beginning?

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

I've revised information and can say that he is much like Witch-King by Tolkien. He is not only powerful wizard but also mighty knight-style warrior with some Russian traditional "bogatyr'" (epic hero) features.

Also he acquires some evil trickster features.

Originally, he was pagan god-like supernatural creature with Chthonic features but sometimes related to water.

But in later epics he appeared as Witch-King.

His magic includes chtonic and fairy features, usually all kind of transmutations: himself to lich, maidens to firebirds or frogs or even entire cities to stone.

Also he acquires some features of European Dragons like kidnapping of beautiful maidens, terrorizing villages and so on (but this is also prerogative of Russian Zmey Gorynych Dragon).

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

The wikipedia page isn't to bad for him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaschei
It does lack an origin... The bad part about most Russian/Slavic names though is the hugely variable spellings in translation... Makes it a pain to find them using searches... Wikipedia has at least 6 spellings. xD

Btw he appears in GURPS Classics: Russia on page 100...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

You know, original Russian page is much more informative and in Russian there are only two spellings ("Ko" and "Ka"), the rest is about "sch" and "j" transliterations.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

That would require I could adequately speak Russian however... xD

I have enough problems with french, some japanese, and some Mandarian...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Very interesting, thanks! I'd heard about his soul being in an egg in a goose in a hare in a chest buried under a tree on a remote island (or something like that), and about him generally having a thing for tormenting young maidens, but I'd never heard of him as a trickster or warrior-king.

You should update the English Wikipedia page about Koschei!

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

And again about Koschej and undead in Slavish Fantasy.

So, technically, he is much like lich but he isn't undead. His lichdom is much like Witch-King or Voldemort. Moreover, there are a little fantasy-undead creatures in Slavish folklore. Instead, it often calls fairy-folk (like mermaids, nature sprites and so on) "The Undead" as they don't live but just supernaturally exist (much like as in e.g. C. Simak fairy-fantasy: "Enchanted Pilgrimage", "The Fellowship of the Talisman" and so on). Though in later legends some undead "upyr'" (ghoul) creatures appeared, but it seems that it was because of European influence and they weren't always undead (again like Voldemort in spirit form in first book, where he drank Unicorn's blood).

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

And some thoughts about setting at all.

Slavish folklore may be subdivided to pagan and Christian periods.

At pagan period "folklore" was much more a myth rather than fairy-tale or superstition. Koschej was demi-god, there was a panteon of pagan gods and plenty of lesser spirits or sprites. Pagan clerics were much like druids or wizards and also wisemen, healers and so on.

At Christian period (from the end of 10th century, but better from about 12th century), such creatures moved to field of children fairy-tales and superstitions. There were no god-like creatures, but some lesser sprites were appropriate, especially trading: water sprites (usually for rivers: "vodyanoj" or "nix") for fishermen, forest sprites ("leshij" or "wood goblin") for hunters, swamp sprites ("kikimora" or "fagot") for berry/musroom-gatherers and so on. Wizards and witches seemed bizzare, sinister but at country weren't something unusual, though they seldom were hunted by fanatical clerics but that was unusual. Such wizards and witches used to know herb lore, some sort of alchemy (usually rough potion-brewing, not scientific one) and other esoteric druid/shaman-like skills.
Folklore creatures were much like epic characters: legendary warriors, mighty antagonists and other characters from heroic fantasy.

So, you should choose what you would like to see there.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Hmm... If I were GMing a game in either setting, I'd probably treat the supernatural elements the same. It wouldn't be the creatures that change, but instead humans' relationships with them. Koschej and the other pagan "gods" would be powerful spirits or beings (not sure if they're corporeal or incorporeal), who are revered in pagan times but largely discounted by the Christians. I'd build them with a combination of traits from all the various myths, whatever seems the most interesting.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

In fact the difference in perspective is a theme in the campaign as I intend it to be... In general folklore provides a era of perspective change when 'pagan' beliefs on the supernatural clash with 'christian' beliefs which make most pagan supernatural folklore into demonic trappings... So the 'water diety' that has 'protected your village' for centuries is slowly changed in perception into a demon who haunts the water and probably eats small children...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

I've started to work on the setting, you can see it here: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/cold-iron-dawn

I need to enter more things about character creation in particular, but I've only just started... Let me know what you think...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

A solution I've been considering for letting Path/Book magic be of SOME limited use in combat is to let there be rituals for some of the meta-spells in the mainline magic system. So you could 'Hang' a ritual or two, for example.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

You do know there's a GURPS: Russia out there somewhere? 3e, but the similarities are larger than the differences.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

Indeed... it's 3E and I own it... but this is not purely Russian... Though my initial influence was, due to my Russian class... xD

Btw, any thoughts on how to mod the existing character templates for Druids (to make Assistive Spirit Shaman), Clerics (to make Mage style 'Saints'), Bards (to have enthrallment type abilities without using magic 'spells'), and mages to be path/book ritual magic using types? That's the current thing I'm trying to work on...

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

The setting sounds cool, but the templates posted on the site are cut and paste from the Dungeon Fantasy series, which is possibly illegal, and certainly in poor taste. It's cool to make the material available to your players, less so to make it available to the whole Internet without paying for it.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic
 

That's because I haven't altered them yet... the format of them and having the base up lets me alter them much much easier... It's also pretty useless without the books. I can also set it to be only party members, but then anyone who choses to help me alter them on the forums here can't see them in progress... That kinda defeats the purpose.

Re: Dark Fantasy and Magic