[LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Low-Tech says shoes are "DR 1. $40, 2 lbs." and boots are " DR 2. $80, 3 lbs."

But if you try to recreate shoes and boots using the armor rules, they don't come out right - they're generally too light and too cheap and/or not sturdy enough. Maybe the DR values are for the underside only, and the rest is non-armoring light leather, but then they still come out too light and cheap.

I was trying to recreate an outfit to match this image of a conquistador with the (apparently) leather knee-boots. The boots are clearly functional (riding, walking), but probably also provide some protection to the shins and knees, being used somewhat like chaps to protect against light brush.

So, how to stat them up? What little house rule would make things line up?

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

There's errata, most if not all of the clothing needs to have twice the listed weights.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Really? So leather boots should actually weigh 6 lbs?

In any case, boots will still be significantly inferior to comparable "feet armor" built using the table.

E.g. Layered medium leather for RD 3 to the feet is $22, 2.6 lbs.
For RD 2 it's $12, 1.5lbs.

I actually thought that these weights and costs were meant to replace the Boots from the Basic set... I don't think many PC will spend $80 to get RD2 boots which weighs 3 or 6 lbs, when for $60 and 2.8lbs you can have Heavy Layered Cloth "boots" which grant RD 4. Or you can buy sollerets for $90 which grant the same RD and weigh only 2.4 lbs... (segmented plate).
I don't think boots should be heavier than sollerets.

Or perhaps, foot armor is just armor, e.g. it protects the upper side of your feet, but you still need proper shoes/boots to walk comfortably? E.g. you need to pay the cost and weight of boots in addition to those of feet armor?

This should be made clear because boots are quite significant on a character's Encumbrance.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Clothing weights need to be doubled but not shoe weights... in fact clothing weights are not suppose to include the weight of shoes despite what it says in LT.

When I build shoes, I add 1 or 2 DR to 50% of the foot to represent the sole... boots can also include some coverage for the shin. But even then the area % for feet is a bit small (it has the same % as hands), and probably should be increased to 15-20%.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Well, protection from light brush sounds like Light Leather, which gives DR 1 against Cut (which ought to apply to surface abrasions, in my opinion).

I can't find a weight for Light Leather and I think that the clothing examples that have DR are supposed to be somewhere between Light Leather and Medium Leather, giving DR 1 against everything.

If Light Leather is listed, but not given a weight, that ought to be errata. If the weight is not listed on the table and not in the text where Light Leather is given stats, that's not good organisation.

The argument that Light Leather doesn't make for good armour is irrelevant. Someone might desire to stat up a full-body suit of light leather for a fetishist at Low-Tech. Or any number of other uses.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

As for Shoes and Boots specifically, what's the problem?

Shoes protect 10% of the body and thus would weight even less than 2 lbs. using the armour design system. Most of it seems to be support for the foot and suchlike.

Boots provide minimal protection for the lower leg, but it's not noted how much. If it's about as much material as for the Foot, the weight fits if you use Layered Leather, Light.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Low-Tech clothing had to remain consistent with the clothing in High-Tech. That's why there is a DR inconsistency. If High-Tech was rewriten then all leather clothing/protective gear will be treated as light leather and get DR 1 vs cut only, which, I agree would include most light damage including abrasions etc.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

I think you could make good money by writing and selling a book titled
"How Low Tech was actually supposed to be, if not for consistancy and pagecount concerns"

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

But what's the weight for Light Leather?

If we want to design custom clothing made from it, one that happens to protect from abrasions, it would be nice to have a base weight to plug into the percentages of the body in the armour section.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

I've asked this before, and the response has always been something on the order of "Light Leather is not armor so it does not need a table entry". Really Frusterating! Ok, so it's not on the table... but how about pitching a weight to us anyways! I would think they had to have one to base other items on.

Trying to reverse engineer the weight, light leather is supposed to be equivalent to Heavy Clothing (they both can get DR1 vs. cut only). Heavy Clothing is supposed to be 8 pounds (sans footwear).... but that's for a full set. Assuming that heavy clothing is supposed to cover Torso, Legs, Arms... that yelds 8/2.5... which gives an ugly number. Round down to 3 pounds, this seems fair is you assume that heavy clothing also includes light gloves, a scarf and some kind of light cap.

As for cost, you'll have to adopt a feel good number... as Heavy Clothing cost is based on Cost of Living. If you took 30% of cost of living for status 0, then divided by 2.5 (or 2.666), you'll arrive at $67.5-$72. However, the cost of Heavy Clothing is supposed to include the cost of footwear and accessories. If one just assumes boots, then ((30% of CoL forstatus 0 - $80)/2.666) = $37.5. One could also base it on Status -1 and gain a dollar figure equal to 1/2 or less of these amounts. Personally I set it at $30 for any Leather or Cloth that gives DR1 vs. Cut only.


As a side note, for leather that gives DR 1 (-1 vs. Impaling), I set the numbers at $40 & 6lbs.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Actually the response was this.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...03&postcount=4

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Actually the response was this.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...08&postcount=6

And what RPK worked out would also be quite incorrect because the weights for Clothing in LT is incorrect.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

"Quite" is a little strong - it's exactly half, since the weights were doubled. It has a clear relationship with the correct answer, and WAS based on the most correct information available at the time ;)

EDIT:
This would be the amended Torso entry in full, weight adjusted slightly to produce almost exactly 10 lbs when multiplied by 3.05 because I'm a gigantic nerd.

Light Leather/Winter Clothing
DR 1/0* (needs a new footnote, as DR is vs cutting only)
$180
3.3 lbs
TL 0
Don 30 (extrapolated from other leathers, and frankly winter clothing takes time to assemble so I'm comfortable with this).

Special Features: Comfortable, counts as cold-weather survival gear if fully covered.


Interesting notes - almost twice as expensive as medium leather, less than half as protective, a third the weight. "Half" of medium leather would be DR 1 against everything but impaling. DR 1 against nothing but cutting is enough worse that I'm comfortable calling it a third the protection and therefore appropriate to the weight. High cost is obviously due to enhanced attention to comfort (as this is clothing, not armor).

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

But is was not correct, and instead of giving us the correct answer now, the post points to an incorrect one.

I'm not criticizing RPK, he attempted to provide an answer even though he wasn't connected with LT... I appreciate that. I also don't fault him that the answer was incorrect, it's a matter of "garbage in = garbage out".

Then you should note that Heavy Clothing is not 10 pounds, but 8 pounds (in order to match values in HT)... this correction appears in the errata as well.

Additionally, you do not divide by 3.05... weight of clothing does not include the weight of footwear. The errata goes on to mention that Heavy Clothing does include the cost of gloves, but it can be inferred that their weight is also not included. Thus it is debatable whether or not the weight of scarves and headgear is included. Thus you need to divide by 2.85 (if the weight of neck/headgear is included), or more likely 2.5 (if no accessory weight is included).

Between those values (2.85 and 2.5) you have 2.666, which also happens to produce an integer, thus this is the value I went with.

------------

For cost, you can use the entire 3.05 divisor. I would also base armor on -1 status clothing (s -1 status generally represents minimum to survive with no frills), thus after rounding up, you get $30.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

LOL

But really, a full-fledged article with Dan's comments about GURPS Low-Tech armor and clothing . . . in GURPS Low-Tech would be valuable, and even actually needed.

Re: [LT] Shoes and Boots
 

Would this fit the bill?

[7] DR1 vs cutting only!