[Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Let's say you have Telecommunication-Telesend as a psionic ability with the Universal Enhancement. So now you can communicate and you both understand each other's language. [B91]

Now, let's say you add Mind Probe and Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation. So now you can Mind Probe and Mind Read someone, but only when you're in contact via Telecommunication. [B69-70]

My question is: when you use Mind Probe and Mind Reading on someone with whom you do not share a language, will you be able to Probe and Read their mind because of the Universal Telecommunication link? Or, do you need to purchase the Universal Enhancement again for both Mind Probe and Mind Reading?

In GURPS: Psionic Powers, there is a Universal Technique that does the same thing. If you have the technique for your Telecommunication ability, does it translate to all abilities that have the Telecommunication Limitation applied to them? Or, would you have to purchase this Technique again for each additional ability?

My impression is that the Telecommunication Limitation implies that the ability works *through* the Telecommunication ability. Since that ability auto-translates for you, any abilities that make use of it benefit from it. Does anybody want to try and talk me out if this?

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Sorry for the thread bump, but I really am curious about this and could use some sage input from the forum community.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

I would probably allow it - it feels right to me that your Telecommunication translates for you, so anything that makes use of it would get translated automatically. That's probably not-quite-balanced, but I'd make up for it by giving enemies Mind Shield or other, nastier, defensive abilities.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

I think you need to purchase it again. Requiring a Telesend link is a disadvantage.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Going through it step by step:

Telecommunication - Telesend allows you to trasmit thoughts directly to others. Universal automatically translates the messages you send into your targets language.

I think the key here is that Telesend, unlike the other Telecomms, is oneway only. Note that Receive only and Send only are unavailable to Telesend. So, Universal on Telesend lets you translate from you to them.

Mindreading is the other direction. Youll need Universal on Mindreading to translate your targets thoughts into something YOU can understand.

Ditto for Mind Probe.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

There are no free lunches. If you want the benefits of the enhancement, you must purchase the enhancement for every relevant trait that you want it to apply to.

(Telecommunication, -20%) does not cause the limited advantage to work through Telecommunication. It simply requires that you have established Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject -and- that you are maintaining Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject.

Consider (Telecommunication, -20%) to be a rephrased (Accessibility: Only those I am currently using Telecommunication to communicate with, -20%).

A -20% limitation should not also provide the effects of a +50% enhancement for free, simply because you bought that enhancement on a completely different advantage.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Okay, you've convinced me.

However, it makes sense (to me at least) that if you're Mind Reading with Universal Enhancement a subject with whom you do not share a language, and use that connection as your in to use Mind Probe on them, that you will naturally still understand them. I guess, as the GM, I will have to naturally insist that any player that purchases the Universal Enhancement for their Mind Reading advantage must purchase it for their Mind Probe advantage as well. Also, if anyone wants to add the Universal Enhancement to their Telecommunication-Telesend, Mind Reading, and Mind Probe advantages, I'll insist that they improve all three advantages in lock step. Not because this is RAW, but because in my campaign, a telepath is either hindered by language barriers, or they are not.

GURPS RAW would be that some telepathic abilities can be hindered while others are not; in fact, even when you have the Universal Enhancement on Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading, allowing to you send and receive surface thoughts without concern for language barriers, your default condition when adding Mind Probe with the Telecommunication Limitation and working via your Mind Reading contact, will NOT work across language barriers. Or, it's perfectly RAW to be able to add the Universal Enhancement to Mind Probe, but not Telecommunication-Telesend or Mind Reading; if you don't share a language with your subject, you can neither send nor receive surface thoughts, yet you can still use Mind Probe, even when it has the Telecommunication Limitation and you're only able to probe via a Mind Reading contact.

If I've got the RAW wrong, please let me know. If you think insisting that telepaths can either work across language or not (as opposed to working for some abilities but not others) is silly, you are free to convince me by sighting counter examples in beloved fiction. For what it's worth, I have a Vulcan in my Star Trek campaign and that's why this is coming up.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

I see your point but two things.
1) buying the advantage for each is a game mechanic and balance thing not something you would think about from the charecter or tv audience point of view.
2) reading surface thougts or sending them is different then probing and that level may not rely on language as much. could go both ways as your translating your surface thoughts into your language as you organize them or deep thoughts are just a umble of shared patterns/images and ideas.
I would buy the enhancement again

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Okay, I'm waffling. How does the forum community feel about this argument?

I have Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading with the Telecommunications Limitation. I use Long Distance Modifiers when trying to transmit my thoughts at range with additional penalties if I can't see them because that's the way Telecommunication-Telesend works [B91]. Normally, I must touch or be able to see my subject for Mind Reading to work [B69]; but with the Telecommunications Limitation, it "only work on those I'm presently in contact with via Telecommunication" [B70]. My question is this: must I still touch or be able to see my subject in order to read their mind?

I would answer this: no. The Telecommunications Limitation establishes that I must first establish contact via Telecommunications and that this is both necessary and (I say) sufficient. The previous restriction of requiring a touch or being able to see them no longer applies.

If you agree with the above, then aren't you conceding that Mind Meld with the Telecommunications Limitation is basically working *through* Telecommunications? Maybe the Telecommunications Limitation is priced at -20% not because it hampers the ability it's applied to, but to lower the cost of purchasing Telecommunication and Mind Reading (or any other appropriate advantage) together.

Consider this. Mind Probe requires that "you must first either touch your subject or successfully read his mind with Mind Reading" [B69]. The Mind Probe advantage cost is 20 points whether you have Mind Reading or not. So, having Mind Reading makes Mind Probe much more effective, but the cost of Mind Probe isn't increased. Similarly, having Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation may well be much more effective because of various enhancements applied to Telecommunication, but the cost of Mind Reading shouldn't be increased.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

If you are using telecommunication on them you are considered to be touching them.

I consider that to be irrelevant. I don't want to make it so that someone with the ability to read minds and ignore language barriers while doing so, automatically will have the ability to broadcast understandable to non-telepaths without even knowing what their language is, even to multiple non-telepaths without a language in common just because that will be so much cheaper. Telecommunication does not receive and therefore has nothing to translate coming from the other end. It's only used to touch the people you want to mind-read.

Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question
 

Excellent way of thinking about it.

Agreed. I'm NOT saying that Telecommunication should enjoy the same enhancements and suffer the same limitations that Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation has. I am saying that Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation should enjoy the enhancements and suffer the limitations that Telecommunication has.

Being able to cross a language barrier should cost extra. The question is, should I have to pay for that cost for every single telepathic ability? Or, is it enough to pay for it with Telecommunication and then tie other telepathic abilities to Telecommunication via the limitation? In neither case is anybody getting to cross the language barrier scot free. In one case the ability to telepathically communicate across language barriers costs 15 points (+50% of 30 pts) and in the other case it costs 30 points (+50% of 30 pts twice). If we add Mind Probe to the mix, the total cost of crossing language barriers for all three telepathic abilities becomes 40 pts (+50% of 30 twice plus +50% of 20 once).

Looking at the Telespeak ability [GURPS Psionic Powers, p. 59]: it basically combines Telesend and Mind Reading. You are allowed to add the Universal Technique to this ability. The cost of buying up the Universal Technique to base skill level would be 6 pts (it's a hard technique that starts at a -5 default). 6 pts to cross the language barrier sending and receiving, the only down side being that you'd have to use Telesend and Mind Reading at the same time. Even if they weren't linked, the cost of would only be 12 pts.

Indeed, the cost of the Universal Technique [Psionic Powers, p. 60] seems to cost less than half what it would if purchased as a limitation. Can a cost - play balance argument can really be supported under these circumstances? Even still, the problem remains. When you have "touched" your subject via a telepathic ability that has enhancements and limitations, should not telepathic abilities operating through that touch be effected by those enhancements and limitations?

Although, if someone had the Racial Limitation on their Mind Reading ability, I would not charge them full price for Mind Probe if it also suffered from the same limitation. Although, Mind Probe costs 20 pts whether you have Mind Reading or not, so I guess I would charge full price.

I'm so confused! Thank you all for being patient with me.