Effects of meditative trance
 

Should a person who uses Meditation or Autohypnosis get a negative modifier to Perception, etc. because of his trance? How deep is the trance?

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Basic p. 179 says -2 to unrelated IQ, Perception, or skill rolls, but I guess that's after you've completed your Autohypnosis.

I'd probably go with a -3 to notice anything while in the Meditative or Autohypnosis state.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

There are many sorts and depths of meditation, which BTW in RL isn't the same than Autohypnosis. It's known that in occasions kids hurled stones to Ramana Marharshi in the temple while he was in Samadhi (a very ample term for different levels of depth), but since he was effectively attaining Moksha, he didn't noticed the hits.

This could be translated to no Perception at all, but as I'm saying, there are many types of meditation that can be in correspondence to the current spiritual achievement of the one meditating (the less spiritual status, more aware is one of the world of the senses, so there are more Perception; when one has a very high spiritual status, he can be well unaware of the bodily and even of the psychic and mental world, that is, diminished or no Perception at all; with complete Enlightenment (Moksha), "he" is simultaneously aware of the inner and outward faces of reality, which for him are now and forever a single thing (advaita), which can be usually translated to normal Perception again since the "Awakened one" doesn't need meditation anymore. This is a basic pattern from the Hindu Advaita Vedanta point of view, but it's (was) very similar for contemplative Vajrayana Buddhists, Muslim Sufis, Taoists, Shaivas . . .

Shamanistic practices are a different thing and I'm not entering there.

I guess one needs to house rule these things a bit because in most RPGs (well, there is Tibet RPG -I need to check it), contrary to the combat rules -for putting the easiest instance- they are vaguely portrayed, both in fluff as in crunch.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Check "Technicians of the Sacred" in LTC1. It's very generic, but it's also more detailed mechanically.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I did, my apologies for not quoting this part of LTC1 that effectively speaks about this.

I wasn't being oblivious about it. I didn't quoted it due two things: "Technicians of the Sacred" in page 16 doesn't directly answer to Asta Kask question, that is, what happens with your Perception while you are meditating. The other thing is that the Tibet RPG could be more explicit in some of these subjects, hence my desire of checking it -I've seen the Lite version of the game and it's interesting; however I can't say more without reading more about it.

On the other hand, I think that it's not honestly possible to be more explicit about these subjects (meditation, altered states of consciousness, spiritual states, stations -not all these are the same things, BTW) without an extensive knowledge and being outside of the frame (or "setting") own of each specific spiritual tradition -which always goes along with its own specific techniques.

Of course, in the book you're mentioning, we can read parts as this:

From this we could interpret that he'd be suffering from -2 to -5 not only to Perception, but to all his success rolls. And in the worst case, he could be freaked without being able to do anything.

However, I was answering to Asta Kask from a perspective which usually is or was handled without the use of drugs. Because that and me don't wanting to muddle the things, I wasn't entering into the Shamanistic point of view, more open to drug use -even if Shamanism is a very broad term, too, for some different things.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I'm talking about Ice Age shamans who 'ride the drum', much like their late Sami descendants.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I forgot to say that these are a set of very well tought rules. The ones that I saw in the Tibet RPG seemed to be along the same lines.

For instance, I remember a bit about some rules for Tantric rituals, their link with Erotic Art and the relationship with an actual partner. Most of this seemed to me very similar to the rules in LTC1 despite being a different rule set.

In fact, I think that the Tibet RPG material could be easily translated to GURPS terms, if one regards that as useful or necessary -and now it's even easier thanks to the "crunchy" guidelines included in Low Tech Companion 1: Philosophers and Kings, p. 16.

BTW, I like very much the implementation of Body Disciplines for attaining trance states.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Also, interestingly, achieved daily at rave events, even without recreational chemicals. I need to find that paper again, but there was a bit of ethnological study examining the parallels between sacred ecstatic dance traditions and the 8-12 hr endurance dancing at a rave - strong rhythmic music, hothouse environment, vigorous dancing to the point of exhaustion - sometimes with the use of stimulants like caffeine (or stronger chemicals) to prolong the dancers ability to perform, sometimes combined with various mind altering chemicals (alcohol on up), etc. etc.

The key differences being that ravers are doing it en masse, and purely for the sensation - the state of altered consciousness is the end, not the means to an end.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Not all meditations are the same. I could write GURPS: Meditation, if I had the time, in which various meditations would be shown to provide different modifiers.

The meditation I practice probably gives a +2 to Perception while practicing in addition to permanent bonuses to Per, IQ, DX, HT, and Will over time. One of the most common misconceptions about meditation is that it is like sleep in which there is a decreased level of awareness during the state. I doubt, for instance, that Ramana Maharishi "didn't notice" stones thrown at him while he was meditation so much as he didn't care.

Having said that, I'd probably give "riding the drum" a -4 to Per but a +2 for the purposes of Detect, Medium, etc.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

IDHMBWM but I would concur with Edges. I do clinical hypnosis for chronic pain management as part of my practice and, in gaming terms, I think that there are two major variables of interest to you here. First is the depth of the trance, and second is whether increased perceptive abilities is part of the purpose of of being in the trance, counter to the purpose, or neutral.

In the last two cases, I would suggest that you have a -1 to PER for each level of increase in other skills or attributes, where level of perception is irrelevant to the purpose of the trance, and -2 to PER per level of increase if it's actually counter (like trying to put conceptual distance between you and your body's sensations).

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Remember that the trance we have here is for the specific purpose of perceiving the spirit world, and not notice the world around us as much.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

The simplest method would be to treat it as a temporary case of Single-Minded.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Hm. In other thread, months ago, you once claimed that the Bhagavad Gita was supporting "polytheism". In that moment, I couldn't be able to manage my time for answering to you regarding this. The Gita isn't about "polytheism", and "the" Krishna that speaks to Arjuna isn't a "god between many others", but the Supreme Self or Paramātmā. I had the quotes at hand but no time for writing the post.

I'm pointing at this because, for understanding meditation, or at least eastern meditation, is needed to have a real grasp of eastern metaphysics. Achieving a real understanding about that is all but easy . . . "Polytheism" isn't in most cases but an exoteric attitude, which was described as "misleading" by some orthodox Hindu Scriptures and teachers.

I agree with you saying that there are lots of misconceptions about meditation and spirituality.

OTOH, being hit by stones thrown at you hurts. And Ramana Maharshi wasn't a fakir. You can doubt about it, sure. But then you can behold similar things by yourself -if you're lucky. Of course that Ramana Maharshi's meditation had nothing to do with anything like sleep, rather at the contrary, true meditation is intense lucidity.

To be unaware of the body by trascending it -it's only an upadhi, an objectivation of the infinity, a superposition to the Self- is a part of the Vedanta Advaita teachings and methods ("The body isn't the Self").

To be aware of the Prâjna state (*) conveys, in certain steps of the spiritual development, to not be able to be aware of the state of Vaishwânara -the usual state of the human mind, linked to the wordly perception. Again, this has nothing to do with sleep . . .

In Hindu terms, that "spirit world" is called Taijasa, the physic or subtle domain, the intermediary step or "world" between the aforementioned Vaishwânara and Prâjna.

I guess you need to stablish how deep and exclusive is the meditation of that shaman. They usually don't surpass the domain of Taijasa, which is, between many other things, the dwelling place of the "spirits" they deals with.

The subtle domain sometimes can be partially perceived as intermingled with the corporeal world. However, if your shaman is really deep in a state akin to Taijasa, his perception of the worldly domain well can be zero. I've seen this often, although I acknowledge that such states are extraordinary without the use of drugs nor any other known technique.


(*) "The divine world", for saying it so, "where" all individual and existential conditions and limitations have been abolished.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I'm going to comment on this from the "tech" perspective that informed my treatment in LTC1. I take meditation and similar processes as techniques or even technologies for altering consciousness by adjusting the neural state of the human organism. The practices for doing so are often associated with spiritual theories, but in just the same way, the use of herbal medications is often associated with humoral and similar theories (Galenic, ayurvedic, and traditional Chinese medicine are example); such theories may provide a convenient empirical classification of effects, but they have no relation to the actual causes.

Belief in the theories may offer some benefit in itself through the placebo mechanism. But the herbs or the trance induction methods work regardless of whether you believe in the mystical theory, through physiological mechanisms.

Now, in a game world, you might want it to be otherwise. And that's fine. But the resource for that would be Thaumatology, I think.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Well, you know, we have divergent views here. Doesn't matter. My reply comes from actually working in that field for many years, and it's in conformity with the orthodox Hindu teachings and with others that are unavoidably related. Anyway, right now I'm not able to discuss these things in more depth.

Too much time, too much energy, and usually the stance of people in these matters is very difficult or near impossible to be modified. They have grown within a very specific world-view and it's not easy -for saying the least- to go out of it for seeing the things without its inherent glasses. Trying to do that literally changes the life of a person in radical ways, and often it's a painful process, too. Additionally, the modern day world doesn't provides many examples of the points I was speaking about. I guess that the thing boils down to the fact of that just providing information, writing reasonings, quoting texts, and claiming actual experience isn't enough.

Anyway, posting a few comments on these subjects can be useful or interesting for role playing games involving at least some fantasy elements. So I let drop around here some of these things occasionally.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I think I'll go with this:

There are three ways to reach a trance state: 1) meditation, 2) fasting and sleep deprivation, and 3) hallucinogenic.

1) Meditative trance state requires a roll against Meditation-4 (although I may devise a technique to let you buy that off). The trance is comparatively shallow - -4 penalty to notice irrelevant stimuli, +2 to notice relevant stimuli. Roll vs. Will to break the trance when desired.

2) Fasting and sleep deprivation. Powerful, easy, but very dangerous. Eat nothing, drink nothing, don't sleep until you reach 0 FP. At that point a trance occurs - basically you are unconscious - for 2dx6 hours. Then you go to -1xFP and fall into a Coma!

3) Hallucinogens. Chew on Dreamroot (fictive drug for the setting). After about 10 minutes, you enter a Hallucinating state in which you remain for 1d hours. Lose 1d FP afterwards. Very good for Information spells - gives +2 to effective skill.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

You must have me confused with someone else. Or you have completely misinterpreted something I've written. I don't recall ever commenting on "polytheism" on the internet. And I'm certain I have never referred to the Gita as being "about 'polytheism'."

Looks gameable.

You and Bill may have divergent views. But it looks like you're talking about different things. You said one needs to have a good grasp of metaphysics to fully understand meditation. He said you don't need to believe in a theory to benefit from meditation. Both are true.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

No, I'm also saying that the religious, theological, spiritual, and metaphysical theories of meditation contribute effectively zero to our actual understanding of it. Meditation is a physical process taking place in a physical information processing system. We will understand it fully when we grasp the physical causality. Anything other than that is like Molière's doctor saying that opium makes you sleep because of its dormitive virtues.

But subsidiary to that, (a) I believe there is an etic view of meditation as well as the various emic views, (b) I believe the etic view can have independent validity, and (c) I believe that a general rpg treatment must be etic.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Right! I had the feeling of that you claimed such thing in this post yours, a post that was written when I was overloaded of work. But, after checking it again, I'm very glad of being wrong about that you were saying. Maybe I didn't answer at the time because I realized that it wasn't needed -that is to say, nothing to add for my part. Or as you're saying, maybe some other claimed that the Gita supported "polytheism" -BTW I don't have a prejudice against it, don't get me wrong, it is an useful approach in many fields and to some degree, but not for Mokhsa. I want to add a small disclaimer, too: many people thinks that, if one argues anything against "polytheism", it's because the one arguing is a Christian of whatever denomination, which in my case isn't true.

Knowing that you weren't claiming that saves me a bit of additional work. Thanks.

He's talking about biology, psychology, sociology and materialism; I wasn't. We were speaking briefly about the same thing but from incompatible angles. One of the problems with the modern scientist approach is that this science is, in practice, very difficult to separate from its totalist goals. A science that is empirical and based in the perception of the senses, by definition can't gather a knowledge that is beyond the physical ambit. Honestly, such science can't claim much about orders of reality that aren't accessible through the body. Totalism here means the pretension of explaining all through the modern scientific method, which unavoidably means that all that can't be studied and positively checked by it is unreal, false and delusional. It results in reductionism. Modern science should be open-ended, but when one is focused in the sensorial world the mind is usually lost in its specific complexities. A material -or physical- science isn't but a partial science and can't define reality. BTW, this totalist tendency own of the point of view of the modern sciences is in part responsible of the intolerance of its representantives regarding any other form of knowledge. And well, the immense quantity of false spiritual teachings that are increasingly abundant, paranormal frauds, UFO beliefs and such things certainly doesn't help here, because all these things seem to give the reason to the scientist point of view, as if it were a safeguard for keeping our mental sanity while we are menaced by tons of harmful -and foolish- lies. The utterly decadent situation of the Christianity (along with other religions, but specially this, with its various denominations) doesn't help, neither: it's so wrong and inefficient that it actually pushes people towards the scientist beliefs.

Speaking of your assertion about that isn't needed to believe in a doctrine -because these things aren't theories at least in the modern and popular sense of the term- for drawing a benefit from its associated practices, it is fair in some cases. But not completely.

Usually there are diverse metaphysical points about which many aspirants to Enlightenment have no empirical evidence at the beginning, but only partial insights. -Please note that metaphysical issues aren't at the same level than "religious dogmata", by definition only and exclusively "approachable" through faith-. For actually develop these partial insights into full spiritual knowledge, jñana or gnosis, many times is needed some type of faith: faith in the veracity and autenticity of one's spiritual tradition, in the own master, and in the doctrine. Without this initial faith and belief, most aspirants would have turned to some other thing during the difficult steps of the path. Faith kept them in the track long enough for allowing them the attainment of empirical experience (but this would be an empirism unlinked from sensorial or bodily perception).

In reality this sort of faith that is often asked, isn't very different of the faith required today to an student of physics or of any other science (and actually I'm speaking about sacred science): he must rely in the truthfulness of many discoveries and theories already made by others in the past; he must rely in the mass media; he hasn't real experience about the sub-atomic particles; he doesn't know for sure if Albert Einstein was a reliable mind . . . The student assumes that all is mostly right and then proceeds into studying, eventually reaching a point in which he is enough confident about the matters. And anyway he's going to die of old age without being able to verify all these things by himself.

Anyway true faith comes from an inner conviction derived from some empirical but not complete experience, or caused by the recollection and reminiscence in the Platonic sense (anamnesis). So, if there's enough recollection, faith can be entirely pointless to you because the pointed truths are more or less obvious to you in a natural way. I acknowledge that this is increasingly rare . . . Having "blind faith", OTOH, the "faith" more usually associated with religion -and not with doctrines of knowledge-, well can be a disqualification in these ambits. For instance, I had to destroy a specific faith that a person had during most of his lifetime because it was conveying a set of beliefs utterly uncompatible with his aspirations, and this isn't more than a specific case of helping to destroy ignorance (specially in the sense of avidya). Although in reality, no one can make such things for others entirely: it's needed that you are able to understand by yourself at the end; in absence of this requirement, all is pointless.

Also, this is plenty of nuances. The unruly Srî Nisargadatta Maharaj was asked about how he attained Enlightenment. He answered: "My master told me the truth in few words. I believed it intensely for three years and that's all". That is far of being typical, but with enough recollection and concentration it can happen -with no method or technique.

Paradoxically, most of this isn't about belief, but about disbelieving, which is often hinted with the Neti, neti expression ("not this, not this"). One needs to be skeptical not only about social conventions, memes . . . but about the entire existence and the universe for unveiling that which is beyond the ordinary appearances -in other words, removing upadhis and abandoning profane, worldly beliefs.

Because there are two kinds of skepticism: the one that can lead to transcendent knowledge, and the other, much more common, that leads to nihilism.

For finishing with the faith theme, I want to put here one of the patterns for the Advaita Vedanta "practice". Note that this has little to do with the guidelines presented in "Technicians of the Sacred", which are suited for a wide variety of practices and types of traditions (the ones of the Shamanistic kind are mixed in that page with collective rituals, with religious Mysticism of the western kind, and with the Gnostic/Jñanic type of the eastern kind -there are a lot of different things in a small page!), both exoterical (public) and esoterical (concerning only to aspirants):

The path of knowledge only can be traversed by a person with the capability of discerning between the real and the unreal, unattached from the worldly things, wishing to attain release and gifted with calm, self-control, strenght, concentration and faith. Vedanta practice consists in the indagation of the Real (vichara), which unfolds by Itself in four succesive phases:

a) To hear the doctrine from the lips of an Awakened master (here a supernatural element plays a key role, too), installed in the consciousness of Brahman. The fruit of this hearing is the intelectual understanding of the teachings.

b) To reflect about the already heard until the attainment of a rational conviction of its truth.

c) To meditate about it continuosly until that the theoretical and rational conviction is converted in live experience, for then reaching to

d) know intuitively -that is, through the Intellect or Buddhi, nor through the mere faculty of the reason-, for seeing directly that the only true reality is Brahman.

As you can see, faith as such isn't required in the same sense than in the religious one, but isn't discarded.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

-

A springboard for jumping don't creates the air nor the space in which the actual jump happens; rather, the air and the space are there.

In the same way, true methods for spiritual attainments don't create higher orders of reality: they are there, too. The methods are only springboards.

-

Adjustments in the brain chemistry to suit a higher order of reality through diverse spiritual practices doesn't prove that the higher order of reality witnessed by the practitioner is a subjective product inside the mind of a spiritual practicant. You can believe that it hints at that, but it's not really a demonstration.

Adjustments in the brain chemistry to suit a higher order of reality through spiritual practices isn't more than an adjustment to different pre-existent / self-existent realms of the Consciousness that are beyond -and sometimes below- the contemporary human "default consciousness mode" -which, BTW, is too an altered state of Consciousness, but this is far from being obvious because it's shared by most people in the world.

-

Well, I think that I'm aware of your views about this. We already talked about this and I'm familiarized with these points of view. Let me make a few comments, written without any disrespectful intention. You know that I'm honestly grateful to authors writing these great GURPS books like Low-Tech and many others.

No spiritual master could agree with what you're claiming in your post -OK, I guess that doesn't worry you in the least. OTOH I claim that in the contemporary world, there aren't spiritual masters around . . . To my mind, your explanation is a portrayal of the materialistic thinking, which is a philosophy and a set of beliefs, too, and certainly isn't lacking of an emic value inherent to the predominant weltanschauung:

No one can be neutral by discarding the so-called emic factor for keeping exclusively the so-called etic one. By doing that, one is consciously or unconsciously keeping the so-called emic factor of its own culture and world-view, clearly spoiling and interfering with any pretension of "objectivity" or "neutrality".

For me, one of the great delusions of the contemporary mentality is believing that the current set of scientist beliefs and convcitions are more objective and truer than the beliefs and convictions of other peoples and times. This often goes against any ethic of goodness and tolerance, because almost all cultures in the Earth have been destroyed by genocide and above all, by ethnocide ("intentional and systematic destruction of an ethnic culture") in the name of this supposed objectivity and debatable superior model of civilization. The agents of this destruction done by the western invasion and encroachment weren't only military forces, but Christian missionaries, humanitaristic ONGs, alien forms of clothing, alien technological devices, implanted industrial business, implanted mass-media . . .

However, at this point of the race, and since time ago, the situation is unstoppable. But there are a few "survivors".

The contemporary man is likes to judge and to speculate about peoples that he doesn't know, about civilizations entirely alien to him, and about cultures that are mostly or entirely extinted thousand of years or centuries ago, often using assumptions from distorted reports and wild speculations. Even more: this taste for learning about past peoples isn't pursued because love of knowledge alone, but for keeping and toughen the conviction of that the current way of life is truer and better. It's amusing that this same contemporary man can be "judged" and critically studied by a few persons that, while living in the 21st century, aren't caught in the dominant weltanschauung and pertain effectively to some of these ancient civilizations or are at least direct heirs of them. It's not usual, it's not frequent, but such "Low-Tech" persons exist today, and they can be able to be critical with contemporary beliefs, and the whole modern ideological apparatus isn't a true chanllenge nor is modifying them inwardly (BTW, this doesn't work by dissociation, but by discrimination between truth, falseness, partial degrees of truth, "optical delusions" and pure misinformation).

In a way, this works at the inverse, too: 21st century individuals don't need to understand the exact functioning of a microwave oven, or of a LED display, or a computer, or a mechanical vehicle for effectively using such technological devices. Such theories "contribute effectively zero" to their usage and experience. All they need to know is how to push some buttons. Additional theory doesn't change anything, for most people, in practice, is just fluff.

OTOH, 21st century "Low-Tech" individuals can handle the same devices with the same ease and they can have even different ideas regarding how they are working. Of course, being "scientifically informed" is, for these individuals, another way of being aware of the beliefs own of the people that surrounds them. And they can think critically, with the advantage of having a first hand knowledge of at least one of the so-called "Low-Tech peoples", which helps in viewing the entire canvas.

Mircea Eliade is a well known author, and many of his works have a positive value, I'm not doubting that. But it's also well know that he didn't understand properly most of the data that he gathered even personally from different cultures. His merits are notable, particularly in comparison with other anthropologists, but . . . there are many points in his thinking and works in which I disagree, and this term ("technologies of the sacred") that LCT 1 is using is one of them -between many others. Anyway I'm not going to make a great deal of this, because I'm enough happy with LCT 1 as it is.

Mircea Eliade, as another student of all but master of nothing was unable to reach the goals of any spiritual path, and became solidary with Carl Gustav Jung and his "Process of Individuation", which is not only phychologism -in the sense of phychological reductionism- but also a very deceptive and dangerous distortion of legitimate spiritual doctrines and practices. So, having failed his spiritual quest, Mircea Eliade was described in 1988 as "a strayed Parsifal" by Enrico Montanari.

I understand that rpg books aren't going to be successful in the market in they don't adhere, in some way, to the dominant weltanschauung, world-view and its inherent so-called emic accounts.

And yes, discussing this can be really long. I can't assure that I'm going to be able to answer to the following replies. I know you, most of you, or the vast majority of you aren't agreeing with me in most or all of these subjects. I understand that enough well.

Still, I think that occasionally speaking about things that defy the current system of thought can be interesting and useful in expected and unexpected directions.

Thanks for reading so far.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

The first is a Teaching roll, or a series of Teaching rolls.

The second is the acquisition of skill in Philosophy (Upanishadic) or (Vedanta), and the making of one or more skill rolls in it.

The third is a series of Meditation rolls, almost exactly as provided for in GURPS.

The fourth is probably a Discipline of Faith, or maybe True Faith, or both together; anyway, it's not of the nature of a skill, I don't think. Shouldn't knowledge of the Absolute be, well, absolute?

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I would, of course, be amiss if I didn't point out that Plotinos reached one-ness with the One through meditation, but without the benefit of the Upanishads or Vedas.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Yes, well, that's why the emic perspective is a problem.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

i. "Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses" goes back to Aristotle; it's not distinctive to modern science at all.

ii. There are no orders of reality that aren't accessible through the body, whether directly via the senses, or indirectly via the interaction of the senses with physical instruments. There is no knowledge of anything beyond the physical. The inability of science to provide knowledge of the non-, extra-, or supra-physical is not a defect; there is nothing to know.

iii. This is not, technical, a reductionist view at all, but an eliminativist one. See Paul Churchland's discussion of reduction vs. elimination in physical science: the progress of science reduced heat flow to random molecular motion, but eliminated the idea of phlogiston entirely. I have comparable expectations regarding trance states.

iv. Whether you accept a purely this-worldly view or not, the fact remains that in a book on technology, we can only talk about trance induction from a psychophysiological perspective, or a psychophysiologically informed ethnographic perspective. Any treatment in terms of actual interaction with the divine, or the inner self, belongs in some other book entirely. But there are known methods of inducing trance states, which different cultures invent independently; those are reasonable topics for technological discussion. Whether all those cultures are tuning in on the same ultimate reality, or whether one really has it and the others are all being snared by Satan or Maya, may be left to people who buy the appropriate premise.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Asta Kask, are you annoyed by me not mentioning Plotino or the Neoplatonism? There's no point in that: I acknowledge it had several things in common with Hindu wisdom. There were many cultures and persons achieving great things, but you can't expect the mention of all of them, right?

I chose the Advaita Vedanta frame for explaining something and I'm not going to change it just now because, maybe, a sort of chauvinism (?).

I never implied that the Enlightenment only could be reached through Hinduism.

However, Neoplatonism is less than perfect in many points. It's an incomplete doctrine. It has, for instance, the cap at the One, and that still isn't the infinity nor the Brahman in the context of the Vedanta; instead, it is the first determination as the Being. Such teachings are incomplete and their compilators didn't understand all, nor drew all the necessary nor possible implications of such doctrinal formulations.

This affected the Middle Ages thinking in a great degree, because this doctrine, capped at the One, was limited to the ontology, and from that is only possible to derive just theology and not metaphysics -I'm not using this term with the same restricted meaning that Aristotle did; OTOH eastern teachings weren't capped at all, and going beyond the One (the summit of the Prâjna state, Iswhara, etc), which is the "Tao with name" in the Taoist doctrine, they reach the Absolute Itself, (the "fourth state", Turiya in the Vedanta, Ain Sof in Hebrew Kabbalah, the "unnamed Tao" in Taoism, and is that lack of limits what usually distinguishes the eastern metaphysics from the western ones, or better said, from western ontology and theology along with diverse philosophical trends.

Also, according his biographer Porfirio, Plotino reached such one-ness with the One as you say, but only temporarily. Sufi doctrine categorizes such partial attainments as hal, temporary spiritual states, different of maqam or stations, that are permanent.

Enlightenment is only regarded as such when it's permanent. According with that, Plotino wasn't Enlightened. But other westerners were, before him and afterwards, and I'm not speaking of them right now.

Please note that there are many nuances about all this. I'm only answering in a very summary way.

Isn't that. And nobody is free of his own "emic" perspective.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Fair enough. I read too much into what you said.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Well, it's awfully Western, but I'm going to quote Wittgenstein: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Bill, this is a misunderstanding.

I wasn't speaking about the Low-Tech Companion 1: Philosophers and Kings book, which is nice as it is, but merely answering to some points that you raised regarding the -according to you- needless of metaphysics for understanding meditation.

I'm repeating myself saying that I think that you and TBC made a very good work in the part "Technicians of the Sacred"; I already acknowledged that -more than once in this very thread, and I did it gladly, as I am doing it now.

Please understand that I'm not asking to any Low-Tech book to cover the dimensions that you're mentioning. Obviously that would be stuff for a non-tech book; I stated this in other thread yesterday (OK you can't read all the threads!).

I thought that you were speaking about your personal opinion, not about the book nor about any GURPS book. I wasn't speaking about LCT 1 at all, after trying to answer to the OP questions for then addressing myself to Edges.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

That's fair enough; I got distracted by a side thread.

However, I do want to suggest that the focus in LTC1 is the relevant one for answering the OP. That is, LTC1 didn't ask about whether there is a divine, supernatural, or metaphysical reality, but about methods of inducing certain altered states of consciousness in human organisms. The OP wanted to know about how those altered states of consciousness would affect awareness of the environment in, say, a combat situation. That's a very this-worldly issue.

It's perfectly possible to run a game where you deal with the other-worldly issues. A Cabal campaign might do so, if for example the PCs went to the highest of the four planes. It would be a challenge to describe, of course. But it would be a possible game element . . . just a quite different sort of game element.

Speculatively, I think that the usual in-game representation of an ineffable spiritual experience is an ineffable aesthetic experience. If "usual" means anything for an outcome that a GM might attain a few times in a lifetime of gaming.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Hm. Sorry, but I read too little in this reply yours. Honestly.

That phrase has sense but only according with the proper context. If the Absolute, which is beyond any word, is something about which isn't wise to talk, then there weren't doctrines nor spiritual teachers.

And what's the problem with that being Western? "Awfully"? I don't think so. And I don't see the point. Clearly the East almost always had the advantage in metaphysics since historical times, although that doesn't means that similar perspectives weren't available, too, to Westerners. They were, but in more obscure and troublesome ways.

-

If you guys are upset with me, thinking that I'm against the West, you're wrong. Things are more complex than that. I acknowledge that my emphasis in eastern teachings can cause that impression in some readers, but I think that isn't my fault, or not entirely. One of the reasons because I chose the eastern frame for answering to these things is because it's much more clear than the western one, which should contain many Christian references that I have reasons to avoid.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

You can see I answered to Asta Kask in such terms, as others did. I spoke about penalties, I quoted GURPS sources, including LCT 1, and offered suggestions along these lines. Then, afterwards I added more depth to this when you answered to my initial objection to Edges -for saying it so.

Of course I acknowledge that this thread has grown beyond Asta Kask initial request!

Yes, I agree very much with your last paragraph. Indeed, that ineffable spiritual experience can be reached through such aesthetic experience; it's attainable with role playing games. And I'm familiar with that, indeed I understand that with the doctrine of the Rasa, the diverse aesthetical flavours allied to the purpose of attaining Enlightenment, especially according to the Shaivism-, and particularly in the way Abhinavagupta explained it. Santa-rasa (transcendent peace) and Vira-rasa (heroic, epic feeling) are the most powerful and effective for this that you're suggesting here.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

You are translating my more than imperfect explanation into GURPS mechanics. That's OK.

I wasn't being exhaustive explaining these steps, because I thought that they would be looked upon with some discomfort.

In the first part there should be, in addition to what you're saying, something similar to a Pact and/or the gifting of a Power Investiture, for representing the transmission not only of mental concepts but of a supernatural element or "blessing" to the disciple through the master. Some rituals of initiation are subtle.

Blessed could be included in the first stage, too. Some form of Disciplines of Faith should be included in the second and third stages. True Faith could pertain to the third stage, as a partial achievement (it could be too in the second, though).

The fourth step is the actual achieving of Enlightenment. Obviously that, being the goal, isn't a skill, but rather something non traceable by existing GURPS mechanics. The Power Investiture advantage could have something to do with that, but only very slightly. The Blessed advantage from the first step can go to Very Blessed, depending on how one wants to model this. Clerical Investment / Religious Rank, Status, Reputation and even Social Stigma could handle some of the social aspects of being acknowledged as an Enlightened sage in a culture of ancestral sort, or as a saint in a culture of religious type -although usually these beings are anonymous. And well, I acknowledge that modeling this in a rules wise way is definitely subjective.

"Seeing directly that the only reality is the Brahman" is one of the ways of expressing the effective knowledge and identification with the Absolute, which is operated through the "acquisition" of transcendent knowledge, indeed absolute knowledge leads to Enlightenment. It is advaita (without a second, non-dual, there's no subject-object polarity) because by being absolute, it "swallows" or "anihilates" the human subject, or in other words, the human identity - the ego . . . which in itself is a limitation and an altered state of the Consciousness (another term for the Absolute), and only is ego and operates as such when it holds the conviction of its autonomy regarding the Supreme Self or Brahman. However, until the time of the "anihilation" or "release" or "Enlightenment" (the three are the same in this context), the aspirant (the subject) was "pursuing" the knowledge and assimilating it as an object. Is in the final step where the distinction between subject and object is permanently abolished.

But this absolute knowledge acquired through Gnosis isn't like the scattered notions that we can store in our memory. It's tightly related with this view on Intelligence:

This knowledge is identified with the synthetic nature of the Self (sometimes alluded as "a synthethic conjunct of knowledge"), and it's related with the Intelect in the highest sense of the term (Greek Nous, Hindu Buddhi, Arabic Al-'aql, etc...). It's not the faculty of the reason nor the memory. It isn't a feeling nor an emotion, neither. Indeed, this is the only faculty on the human being able to really tackle on the transcendent; without it any true spiritual achievement would be inconceivable, and all should be reduced to the level of subjective emotions and feelings. On the other hand, Enlightened "persons" just play the divine game, and usually they remain acting as normal humans, or act as spiritual instructors if that is their function. They don't need to demonstrate anything to others, unless there is something needed to do in that sense, as part of their function as individual persons. Many of them added much to their respective cultures, too (Plato, Shankara, Abhinavagupta, Dante, Meister Eckhart, Nicolás de Cusa, Lao Tzu, Dogen, etc).

Don't get angry with me for answering to this, but from the point of view of the metaphysics I'm talking about, Aristotle's thinking isn't particularly relevant, in the same way that Kant and many others aren't relevant. And in several ways, some of the Aristotle's views and philosophies are related with materialism, even if other parts of his theories were used for supporting Christian Scholasticism. OTOH, Aristotle and the Greek Classics are relatively "new" to history. "Sophisticated thinking" started IMHO much before, even in times in which anthropologists still are imagining the so-called "pre-logical" thought, and the Classic philosophers added for certain many distinctive things. Aristotle's philosophy, in various ways, remains as part of the modern mentality, and is viewed as one of its precedents.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

That was more or less my point.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Then we are agreeing here.

I would add to that that the modernity -the rupture with the traditional world-views- started in the Classical times, was stopped or "half corrected" during part of the Middle Ages, then resurged again in the Renaissance and has prevailed until today, affecting later to the whole planet, for good and for bad. Of course, in very general lines.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

I would agree, modulo changing the word "corrected" to "suppressed" or "subverted." But then, I think the Aristotelian revolution was essentially positive, despite incidental bits of garbage that got caught up with it.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Such as . . ?

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Some men are slaves by nature. The form of man is male, and is supplied by the father; the mother supplies only the matter, and proper development results in a male child; female children are usefully defective. Objects at rest tend to remain at rest, and objects in motion tend to come to rest. Every object has a natural place. Goods ideally exchange for other goods of equal value, and no one gains from making an exchange.

For example.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

Agreed, trash.

Makes perfect sense in an environment where friction is sufficient to slow down most motion. It's like bashing Newton for not mentioning the relativistic effects.

I don't even quite understand how I should envision that.

Ideally. Kinda breaks down when subjective value doesn't match objective (average) value. Which is hard to avoid, given that subjective value depends on the environment and the situation heavily.

If anything, about ¼ of what you mentioned is just an approximation/primitive version of the way things work.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

These are actually closely related. It's Aristoleian physics closest approach to the concept of forces. Things slow down not because there is a frictional force acting on them, but because their natural state is to be motionless. Things fall or rise because their natural place is at a higher or lower level, bows snap back because the tips have been pulled away from their natural place and so on.

Re: Effects of meditative trance
 

No, it's completely false from start to finish. There is no such thing as intrinsic value; value is an estimation of a thing in relation to the needs of a human being, and different human beings have different needs and different circumstances. Because of that, it's possible that value of a to X > value of b to X, but value of b to Y > value of a to Y, which makes it possible for them to exchange X for Y and both be better off. That fact is the whole basis of exchange, trade, and market economics. Without it there would never be any reason to have any of those things in the first place.

Nor is this just a "subjective" estimate of value. Consider two villages, one of which grows wheat, while the other catches fish. Wheat has a lot of calories in relation to its amino acid content; to get sufficient protein, the farmers have to eat huge amounts of wheat. Conversely, fish has fewer calories for the same protein; to get enough calories, the fishermen have to eat a lot of fish. In each case, Liebig's Law of the Minimum comes into play to limit their numbers to those sustainable by the most constraining resource. But if they can trade, the farmers can get more protein from fish and the fishermen can get more calories from wheat, and they both are less limited; exactly the same amount of food can sustain larger populations in both villages, enough to support extra people to provide trade and transportation. In other words, trade functions as a virtual additional food source.

Bill Stoddard