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-   -   [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable? (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=74919)

Ulzgoroth 11-30-2010 02:19 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Maybe, but we must also account for clothes, toothpaste, and all the other needful things. 8 tons per person might be too much (that is, if we approximate population to 6k per habitat, which it of course isn't), but it might include something we didn't think of.

You don't need huge stockpiles of those things. You're running a ship with full manufacturing capabilities. You make your own clothes and toothpaste. And current personal stocks are going to be stored in the cabins.
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Well, depends. In a cinematic universe full of pirates and hyperspace monsters, you're probably wrong. In anything more peaceful, you are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Really depends on the exact mechanics of FTL. For a BSG style flagship, where jump preparation relies on computers only, and the jump itself takes seconds, it is probably affordable to never use more than two of (FTL, STL, weapon).

The ship you've designed has no business existing in a cinematically dangerous space. The only way it's going to survive that sort of thing without extreme scriptwriter favoritism is if it's much bigger or more advanced than everyone else...and it's supposed to be TL 9 and belong to nomads, so neither of those holds up.

Putting guns on it lets it stand off pirates of the real-world 'bunch of thugs in a motorboat' model, maybe even the historical 'bunch of thugs in a light warship' model. But anything more serious is going to be able to nuke it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Pretty many, actually. Towing damaged craft, for one thing (important if all fleet craft only have on STL and one FTL drive!). Using instead of a hangar for larger craft. Keeping a craft under construction attached externally too.

Why would you tow anything anywhere? If a ship breaks down, you can repair it in place. Circumstances where doing so is a problem are ridiculously unlikely.

Hooking large parasites to the outside of the ship reduces acceleration, makes any sort of transfer difficult, and may make FTL impossible.

Craft under construction are not going to be much tolerant of the shipyard maneuvering or accelerating, whether or not they're clamped on. Building while drifting is much more practical.
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Not so sure about it. Probably combining mining shuttle mining and flagship mining would work too. After all, relying on shuttle mining too much tends to clutter the hangars.

I just wouldn't want to repeatedly bring my main population centers into hull contact with assorted rocky bodies. It doesn't seem terribly safe.
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Downsizing the refinery to either 1/3 (if solo-mining) or 2/3 (if using combined mining) is definitely a good choice. I'm not sure downsizing Hnd (and computer, and sensors!) is a good idea, especially if it's meant to be self-sufficient in terms of scouting too.

If you're doing serious sensor work, you probably want a scientific array (possibly reduced-size). If you want a big computer...how much does a C9 computer weight at TL9?
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1084982)
Homeworld taught me how painful it is to have a slow-moving refinery - doesn't matter if the refining ship itself is the miner, or if it just tries to get closer to the mining craft swarm. Either way, time wasted moving is time of reduced ore production.

That depends mostly on how travel times compare to work times. Aurora taught me how it's not worth putting lots of engines on asteroid miners, because they're going to be idling in one place for half a decade at a time anyway.

For this ship, it's a major issue, because even with the economic unbreaking switch from SS7, you're able to fill your holds with ore in under a month. I think that probably means your mining system is much bigger than you need it to be, unless by 'nomads' you mean 'all-devouring star swarm'. Which is an entirely valid approach.

David Johnston2 11-30-2010 02:33 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1085083)
Are you certain about that? What about components of solar wind radiation? Sure, but Type II civilization doesn't need planets to gather power in the inner system, does it?
Why would they wait until a comet was completely used up in order to gather more resources?

Because if they don't, they have no reason to move. Moving costs reaction mass. The more you move to get resources, the more resources you need.

sir_pudding 11-30-2010 02:38 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2 (Post 1085106)
Because if they don't, they have no reason to move.

I'm not following. We live in a vacuum forest on a comet. We know that in a few centuries the resources of this particular comet are going to be used up. Why wouldn't we start pushing this comet towards a fresh one now, so that by the time that we need it we'll already be there? We certainly have all sorts of ways to move the comet, some of which (selectively altering it's albedo, FREX) are very energy efficient.

Quote:

Moving costs reaction mass. The more you move to get resources, the more resources you need.
Only if you try to move fast. There's lots you can do with photon pressure as long as you plan ahead. Alter your home's albedo, build solar sails, heck you can even put lasers in the inner system.

Flyndaran 11-30-2010 02:40 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Humans suck at thinking very far ahead, heck anything beyond immediate gratification is rare.

sir_pudding 11-30-2010 02:45 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1085110)
Humans suck at thinking very far ahead, heck anything beyond immediate gratification is rare.

Humans? Depends on how you define the term, I suppose. I don't think a culture with long term planning is any more futuristic than being vacuum adapted.

Flyndaran 11-30-2010 02:52 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1085112)
Humans? Depends on how you define the term, I suppose. I don't think a culture with long term planning is any more futuristic than being vacuum adapted.

Long term thinking would be an interesting gene mod. But it would be something entirely new to the genome and can't be moved over from other animals. That makes it super difficult to engender.

sir_pudding 11-30-2010 02:56 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1085115)
Long term thinking would be an interesting gene mod. But it would be something entirely new to the genome and can't be moved over from other animals. That makes it super difficult to engender.

It doesn't have to be genetic. It can be cultural. Besides between AI and biological immortality there'd be much better personal incentive.

vicky_molokh 11-30-2010 02:57 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
You don't need huge stockpiles of those things. You're running a ship with full manufacturing capabilities. You make your own clothes and toothpaste. And current personal stocks are going to be stored in the cabins.

Hmm, probably. 8 tons per person is too much, but how much is reasonable, and how little is the bare minimum to keeping up T9 Status 0?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
The ship you've designed has no business existing in a cinematically dangerous space. The only way it's going to survive that sort of thing without extreme scriptwriter favoritism is if it's much bigger or more advanced than everyone else...and it's supposed to be TL 9 and belong to nomads, so neither of those holds up.

As a lone one, absolutely. But again, through Homeworld, I found that having your flagship, aside from the actual ships of war, being capable of some shooting is usually nice. Of course, having a multi-ship fleet allows one to get away with a lot of things, such as specializing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
Why would you tow anything anywhere? If a ship breaks down, you can repair it in place. Circumstances where doing so is a problem are ridiculously unlikely.

Hooking large parasites to the outside of the ship reduces acceleration, makes any sort of transfer difficult, and may make FTL impossible.

Craft under construction are not going to be much tolerant of the shipyard maneuvering or accelerating, whether or not they're clamped on. Building while drifting is much more practical.

Okay, you convinced me. Towing should be handled by dedicated utility craft (if any). In fact, in a HW-style case, these are likely the same craft as space marine transports.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
I just wouldn't want to repeatedly bring my main population centers into hull contact with assorted rocky bodies. It doesn't seem terribly safe.

Safer than landing, no? (Note that I didn't make the flagship atmo-capable.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
If you're doing serious sensor work, you probably want a scientific array (possibly reduced-size). If you want a big computer...how much does a C9 computer weight at TL9?

A sensor array is certainly a good candidate for the unspecified slots. And for scout-ships. As for the computer . . . you made me wonder just what else a Control Room consists of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 1085096)
That depends mostly on how travel times compare to work times. Aurora taught me how it's not worth putting lots of engines on asteroid miners, because they're going to be idling in one place for half a decade at a time anyway.

For this ship, it's a major issue, because even with the economic unbreaking switch from SS7, you're able to fill your holds with ore in under a month. I think that probably means your mining system is much bigger than you need it to be, unless by 'nomads' you mean 'all-devouring star swarm'. Which is an entirely valid approach.

I actually have no idea how realistic and cinematic asteroid fields' resources (including plain junk material that is of no use due to being ubiquitous) compares to the construction needs of a fleet of SM14ish mobile homeships and other ships.

Flyndaran 11-30-2010 02:58 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1085120)
It doesn't have to be genetic. It can be cultural. Besides between AI and biological immortality there'd be much better personal incentive.

That's why no one smokes.
If death isn't enough of a motivator now, why on earth do you think culture could overcome it? That's simply more optimistic about human nature than I could ever be.

vicky_molokh 11-30-2010 03:00 PM

Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1085115)
Long term thinking would be an interesting gene mod. But it would be something entirely new to the genome and can't be moved over from other animals. That makes it super difficult to engender.

Purely synthetic genes? Tempting. I like the concept. Will use it somewhere in some TL9+ setting (speaking of which, I am considering an attempt at a space campaign of some sort right now; COC is just kinda near death for more than a year.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1085120)
It doesn't have to be genetic. It can be cultural. Besides between AI and biological immortality there'd be much better personal incentive.

That's probably the default 'new trait' of most THS-style transhumans. Not so sure about all other sorts.


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