Perk Limit
 

Should combat (and style) perks count against the suggested perk limit on page 3 of Power-Ups 2 or are they additional?

In other words if a 150 point character has 40 points in combat skills and techniques (of which 30 are in style skills and techniques of a single style) which of the following is correct?

1. He can have a total of six perks. One must be Style Familiarity (His Style). Two can be any combat perks, and three can be style perks.
2. He can have a total of twelve perks. He has Style Familiarity (His Style). He can have up to six non-style non-combat perks, three style perks, and two combat perks.
3. None of the above.

Re: Perk Limit
 

This is really a GM's call, but I think Martial Arts came out in favor of option B.

Personally, I don't use a limit on Perks. One person having 12 perks and another having only 2 doesn't really unbalance a thing.

Re: Perk Limit
 

It's generally not a problem for me, I generally have to twist arms to get players to take perks at all. I'd like to know what the intent of the rule was, though.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I wouldn't go with A. I would probably go with B, but possibly counting Style Familiarity against the limit. To be fair though, PU2 does say that the GM has final say, and the bit on combat perks says regardless of the campaigns limit on perks. So go with what you feel is right. I would say B is the most likely intent of what is said.

Re: Perk Limit
 

B for me

Celjabba

Re: Perk Limit
 

As far as I understand it, B is the way it works. That's the way I've been doing it since Martial Arts and after Power-Ups.

Ghostdancer

Re: Perk Limit
 

I vote for B. Should A were the case . . . if a 100-point character first started out with four perks, became a disciple of a certain style, and learned 20 points' worth of that style's skills and techniques, then he could acquire neither Style Familiarity nor any of the style perks, just because his maximum possible number of perks would still be 4. This would be weird.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too, but on the other hand PU2 page 3 specifically excludes racial perks (and says nothing about combat/style perks). Also how many characters are going to be limited by the general limit if it doesn't include "combat" perks? It seems like an almost meaningless restriction compared to the skill based one.

PU2 postdates MA.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I limit combat perks as per MA, but I use no limit on other perks. In other words, I use the rule about the GM having the final say.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Sorry, I was being lazy. I should have said, "I vote for C." The text in PU 2 is as follows:

Here's my take:

• "The character's point total divided by 25" (PU 2, p. 3) is the maximum allowed number of non-style, non-racial perks.
• Among the allowed perks, the number of non-style combat perks is limited to "one combat perk per 20 points in combat, military, and/or police skills" (PU 2, p. 4).
• Racial perks provided (PU 2, p. 3) by racial templates and style perks provided by "combative character template, fighting style, or similar abilities package" (PU 2, p. 4) are not restricted by the abovementioned maximum.
• The number of style perks is limited to "one extra perk per 10 points" spent on styles, etc (PU 2, p. 4).

Thus, your 150-point character who has 40 points in combat skills and techniques (of which 30 are in style skills and techniques of a single style) could have the following perks:

• Six (= 150/25) non-style perks, of which two (= 40/20) are allowed to be combat perks.
• Style Familiarity, which would be included in the 30-points style package.
• Three (= 30/10) extra perks, which must be included in the style perks provided by his style.
• Total: ten perks including Style Familiarity.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Personally, I don't think most normal perks should be limited at all; limiting combat (and magical style) perks is a way of reinforcing the settiing by encouraging the use of styles (martial or magical).

I'm not sure what purpose a general perk limit serves.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Interesting. It isn't however terribly clear, or there wouldn't be so many elbows in this thread.

Me neither, but Kromm must think differently or he wouldn't have suggested it. I'd like to understand what that is.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I think it's pretty clear.

• Generally, the number of perks is limited to "point total divided by 25".
  
• Combat perks are more limited: in addition to the condition above, they must not be more than "points spent on combat/military/police skills, divided by 20".
  
• Learning a style is a way to go beyond these limits. It can give N extra style perks, where N is no greater than "points spent on the style, divided by 10".

Re: Perk Limit
 

I see where you are coming from, but if it was so obviously transparent there wouldn't be so many who seem to think otherwise.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Sorry, English is difficult.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Nah. I think it may be the opposite really. You may have correctly interpreted the rules where native English speakers failed.

Re: Perk Limit
 

True, there should probably be an instead somewhere shortly after regardless. However, I don't just run off PU2 but also Magical Styles. That has a table giving the maximum amount of perks per points in spells, going up to 100 points giving 15 perks. Thus I don't feel that a general limit interacts with a style limit in anyway, and ultimately you just add all the limits together to determine your net total number of perks.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I've characters run into the general limit. I think perks are cool, and they happened to come in really handy for that particular build. The GM disallowed it, which I was fine with. I forget exactly what they were, but all of the off-screen stuff seems likely, reload, last man out, the tank is always full one... In an apocalypse setting, those would be kicking.

Anyhow, it's quite clear except whether the style itself counts against the limit. Personally, I think it would be a little silly, however it might just be a case of 'X of these, one of which is your style'. Thinking it silly, I still believe the intent of the rule is for the style to count against the limit- there are builds where you wouldn't be using it. Wildcard skills, Style Adaptation, and other things come to mind, where the distinction is blurred and the rule actually rates much less on the sillyness factor.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Perk limits are mandatory for styles – magical or martial – to give styles added value, but merely a suggestion to the GM otherwise. General perks are on top of anything specific you get for styles. If you have 40 points in the skills of a fighting style, you can learn four Style Perks for your style and two extra for all those points you spent. If you have 20 points in the spells of a magical style, you can learn two Magic Perks for your style and one extra for having lots of spells. If the GM imposes the "one perk per 25 points" limit from Power-Ups 2, that's an extra bonus . . . a lot like "any PC can have five quirks, regardless of how many points he's worth or what he spends his points on." Thus, if your 150-point PC has 40 points in the skills of a fighting style and 20 points in the spells of a magical style, he can have six general perks, six Style Perks, and three Magic Perks in total.

Magic Perks and Style Perks tend to be a lot more potent than general perks, so their limits are more important. The idea is that these perks serve as small enhancements on magic or combat capability, priced to scale with skill-point outlay rather than the cost of enabling advantages (Magery, Trained by a Master, etc.). Whereas while general perks can enhance skills, they're mainly about characterization – like quirks, but unequivocally beneficial. If the GM limits these, it's more to avoid hard-to-roleplay characters than to balance capabilities.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Why isn't that 4 Style Perks (1/10points) and 2 unrestricted combat perks (1/20points)?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Why isn't that 4 Style Perks (1/10points) and 2 unrestricted combat perks (1/20points)?

Are the six general perks restricted to non-combat perks?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Huh? "Style Perk" is the term of art for any combat perk, however you justify it. That's just what they're called.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

In this thread, because it's been important to distinguish "Any combat perk" from "The combat perks listed specifically for your style," most have been using Combat Perk and Style Perk for those, respectively. That's why sir_pudding was a bit thrown by the clarification. But, of course, the real question above was "how do you balance the mix of Style Perks and general perks?" You (Kromm) addressed that that here, and did so quite clearly IMO.

If it helps, I suppose it's worth breaking it down in even more detail by saying that if a 150-point PC has 40 points in the skills of a fighting style and 20 points in the spells of a magical style, he can have six general perks, two unrestricted Style Perks, four additional Style Perks specific to his fighting style, one unrestricted Magic Perk, and two additional Magic Perks specific to his magical style.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Are those six general perks restricted to non-Style perks. In other words if this character has 6 Style perks already is he not able to take say Unlimited Ammo? Or can he count it as a general perk?

Also does Style Familiarity count against any of these limits?

EDIT: What if the character didn't have a style but still has 40 points in combat skills, does he still get 2 Style perks?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

My understanding is that it does not. I know it doesn't count against the 4 perks for having 40 points in a style, or the 2 perks for having 40 points in combat skills, or, obviously, against the magical perk limits.

It might count against the limit for general perks, I don't know. Personally, I think it should be exempt.

Yes.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Do these count against the general limit or not? PU2 seems to say that they do.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Kromm's explanation above seems to say that they do not.

Personally, I had always thought that the rule in PU2 was an alternative to the rule in MA, to account for the fact that many of the Style Perks in MA had been generalized to include non-combative versions of the same perks and that people might use PU2 without using the Style system. I figured that they wouldn't be used in the same campaign until I read the responses on this thread.

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

In the case that the skill points are from a specific style. What if they are just "wild" combat skills?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

Well 4 of them are from a specific style, 2 of them are from having 40 points in Combat Skills, and they are not counted against the general perks in his explanation.

[EDIT] Why should this be any different if he doesn't have a style (or the 4 perks that came with it)?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

I'm not sure, but as GURPS Fan points out above that's what PU2 seems to be saying. If you can get all these bonus perks slots, what's the point of the limit at all?

Re: underpowered animal ally
 

I don't think the PU2 limit makes sense unless you're using it instead of the Style limits. If you're using PU2 without styles, than I can see wanting some limit on the number of Special Exercise and Unusual Training Perks each person can get.

Since I use Martial Arts heavily in my campaigns, I've never bothered with the perk limit in PU2. If I were to run a campaign that featured a lot of the cooler non-combat perks in PU2, I'd consider making Non-combat styles to accommodate them.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Each of the limits has a specific purpose.

• Magic Perks don't aid characterization much, if at all. However, they make your magic more powerful. This effect is reasonably balanced if you view Magic Perks collectively as a kind of enhancement on spells, also collectively. Ergo, points in spells govern the number of Magic Perks you can have, in the name of game balance.
  
  
• Style Perks (combat perks) don't aid characterization much, either. They make you a more capable fighter, though. This power boost, too, is fairly balanced if you view Style Perks collectively as a kind of enhancement on all combat training. Ergo, points in combat skills and techniques govern the number of Style Perks you can have, also in the name of game balance.
  
  
• Most other perks exist to aid characterization. They also provide a small bump in power, but nothing to fear – potentially abusable perks have built-in checks and balances. However, to avoid mixed-up, hard-to-roleplay characters with dozens of easily overlooked minor gifts, there's a suggested limit, just as there is for quirks. And since most perks aren't tied to any one subset of abilities, this is tied to general power level.

I'm frankly surprised that this causes any confusion. It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects. But for those who find that it is unclear, you may have all of the following:

• Up to one Magic Perk per 20 points in spells.
• Up to one further Magic Perk for a specific magical style per 10 points in that style's spells.
• Up to one Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one further Style Perk for a specific fighting style per 10 points in that style's combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one perk that's neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk per 25 points you have to build your character.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I think it is partly because the separation of the three types has not been spelled out in any book where I have seen it, only the specific cases.

Thus ot would have helped for example if every time there was a perk it would not be be named XXXXX perk, instead being for example XXXXX magic perk or similar, as just using the same word perk for all three types makes it unclearer.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Doctor, I'm surprised, too, at hearing that you've been intending such a distinct separation between "characterization" perks and "improved capability" perks. I thought all perks, including combat and magic perks, are characterization aid! (Kyokushin karatekas and capoeiristas both have the same Karate skill but they are different, so style perks should help them characterize themselves.) Thus, I thought a character who has a style could get extra perks that belong to that style, while one who has no style was limited to the "Point Total / 25" maximum and this limit also restricts combat/magic/whatever perks. However, now that I've heard your words, I follow them.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Just so I'm extra-double-secretly clear: Where does the Style Familiarity Perk fall into this list?

• Buy it with 1 of my 6 'neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk' perks?
• Buy 20 spells and then use that perk to buy Style Familiarity perk?
• Buy 10 spells within a style and then buy that style's Style Familiarity perk?

arnej

Re: Perk Limit
 

Definitely not the last, you need a Style Familiarity perk to take style perks in the first place. The second also makes no sense, as you buy a Style Familiarity perk when you buy the style, and not all styles come to 20 points. Its also possible for someone to have multiple styles but not hit 40 points.

Yet the first also doesn't make sense, as it means you've limited the number of styles a person can take to their point total. Even more of an issue if they can take martial and magical styles. What does make sense is that to get a Style Familiarity you need to buy a style, and styles have their own set of justifications. So ultimately its not that you've brought a Style Familiarity perk, but that you've brought a style and gotten a perk to show for it.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Yeah, my understanding was that the Style Familiarity perks are exempt from normal perk limits. Some styles even let you circumvent how many points you need to buy your first perk from the style, as well. Double Trouble from Gun Fu lets you get Off-Hand Weapon Training before spending 10 points in it, frex.

Re: Perk Limit
 

What about perks like Concealed Weapons Permit, Early Adopter, or Supplier which, IMO, seem to fit the third goal more than the second? Tactical Shooting (and IIRC Gun-Fu for the second two) lists them as Style Perks, but they seem to be more in the vein of general perks.

EDIT: It just seems (Murphy's level) weird to me that a self-taught shooter in permitting state can't get a Concealed Carry Permit, and an Employee Discount at his gun store unless he has 40 points in combat skills.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Apparently I'm talking Martian. I'm still trying to comprehend what the actual rules even are supposed to be to begin with. Every time I think I have a handle on it an author tells me I'm wrong.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I know there are. But I have enough trouble explaining the in-style and out-of-style perk limits to newbies (and the self-admitted 'blonde' guy).
So I just say that non-combat perks have no limits. And combat perks can only be gained by MA limits.

My game. *shrug*

(I'm currently designing a 200-point character, and I doubt I can come up with more than 4 perks I'd actually buy. I'm currently settled on 3.)

Re: Perk Limit
 

I treat these as being both Style Perks for whatever specific style they are listed for and also being available as Social Perks, meaning General, for any character for which it would make sense. The latter is a GM call, the former ensures that even if a GM would normally not allow these Perks to PCs, by allowing the style in question to be taken, he's allowing it to that particular PC.

Re: Perk Limit
 

The actual rules are supposed to be "whatever limits the GM wants to set".

As I understand the suggested rules though, I think part of your problem is wanting to divide the *perks* among Magical, Style and General. AFAICT that's not the intent. Your *slots* are divided among those categories, but any particular perk might conceivably go into any of three kinds of slots, if a Martial Arts and Magical Style you belong to both happened to list it.

Suppose for example you've taken the Onyx Path. DR is on the Lich template so Special Exercises (DR 1) is a legitimate magical perk for that style. It's also a reasonable style perk for many martial arts, Shaolin has it, albeit with the Tough Skin limitation, presumably a more cinematic version would allow it straight. In some settings it might be possible to acquire it through religious deprivation exercises taught by the Order of Desert Hermits, which wouldn't be either kind of style, so in this model would be a general perk. If you are an Onyx Path initiate with a Rainbow belt in Greater Shaolin who once studied with the Desert Hermits you can take it in any of those perk slots.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? Why can't I just take those as General Perks?

Re: Perk Limit
 

Makes sense to me.

Re: Perk Limit
 

What makes sense?

Re: Perk Limit
 

Always. These are intended to allow people who didn't specify a style at all access to some perks.

You often can take stuff you are calling General Perks. You can take anything in those slots you can make some sort of plausible connection to your combat (or magical) skills for. Unlike the 1/10 slots, the 1/20 slots aren't limited to anything listed under the Styles you bought Style Familiarities for. You get them even if you have no Style Familiarities at all.

Mind you I think the whole scheme of linking number of perks to skill points is ridiculous, and it does lead to some nonsensical results, but Kromm's description seems fairly clear. I think you're trying to read too much into the various names. "General", "Style" and "Magical" aren't being used as reserved words, which perks you can buy into which kinds of slots are judgement calls in except the 1/10 points ones, which are limited to those listed with the Style Familiarity under consideration.

Incidentally, it appears to be intended that you can buy that 1/10 for each style for which you have a Style Familiarity, counting the skill points in each. Suppose you buy Karate [10] and Judo [10] and buy two style familiarities out of your general allotment, say SF (Hsing I Chuan) and SF (Jeet Kune Do), both of which list Judo and Karate as skills. You can buy one perk you can convince the GM is somehow related to Judo or Karate (the 1/20 points), both perks listed under Hsing I Chuan (the 2 you get from that 20/10) and two chosen from the list of 6 under Jeet Kune Do (from that 20/10).

Re: Perk Limit
 

If you can just take them as one of your 1/25 total character points Perks instead, how is the 1/20 of Combat Skills even really a limit? Except in the unlikely event you already have 6+ perks and want more?

Re: Perk Limit
 

Coulda sworn you had said:

"Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? When I can't just take those as General Perks?"

Anyways, that's what I suggest. The 1 style perk limit kicks in when you can't take it as a general perk any longer.

Basically, how I imagine it works like this:

You can get Total CP/25 Perks (any perks!) normally. You can get one extra 'Style Perk' per 20 points in combat skills and techniques, or one in your style per 10 points in combat skills/techniques. You can also get an extra 'Magic Perk' per 20 points in spells, etc.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Okay, but that's a lot of Perks. I generally don't see characters who need more than the general slots, do you? It seems kind of pointless to have slots at all.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Why spend the 1/25 general perks on stuff I can spend the 1/20 combat perks on? I can use the general perks for other stuff.

I would start spending the most restrictive perks first. Then the less restrictive ones and last the least restrictive ones. If I needed that many perks.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Because you do want more. There are lots of quite useful perks out there, many of which specialize by skill (and so fill a lot of slots if you want them for multiple skills). It's not hard to come up at least one per good skill your character has that would make sense.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Because 20 points in combat skills and techniques is a lot of points. Say you are a 75 point archer and you want Strong Bow and Special Exercises: Arm ST (2). Do you need 60 points in Bow in order to do that? Or can you just take them with your three general Perks?

What Kromm seems to saying is that you need 60 points in Bow, or 30 points in Bow with an Archery Style because those "Style Perks" aren't available with the regular perk limits. Martial Arts and Power Ups 2 both seem to support this reading. However the consensus here seems to be that I'm wrong.

But if I am wrong, then really why does Power Ups 2 say:
That seems to be pretty clear that what PU2 calls Combat Perks (and what Kromm wants to call Style Perks, here) are subject to this special limit and can't be taken above that. How am I misreading this?

I've been running GURPS 4e since it came out. I barely see players taking any perks at all. At most 1-2 per character. Something's wrong with my players?

Re: Perk Limit
 

I have found in games where the perk limit is strictly enforced it tends to result in very high weapons skills, like Guns MG 30 to get all the perks you wanted for Guns MG

Re: Perk Limit
 

I don't usually play games with that few points. But even in my 380-400 point games, which is where most of my games start, players usually don't take that many perks. I still think it is good practice to spend the most restrictive perks first.

I think Kromm has explained RAW, but that most people in this thread doesn't play RAW.

Re: Perk Limit
 

The only place where I'd want more than 6 perks would be some kind of cinematic high-points game, where I'd pick most perks for the 'cool factor'.

However, this is with neither combat perks nor racial/template perks. The latter two will vary depending on how much they factor in styles and templates. I haven't made detailed martial artists in quite a while, but those are likely to have maximum combat perks (judging by my attempts back in the day). My racial templates for fantasy or space opera seem to have 3-5 perks easily, but in my current campaign the races have very few perks.

Players seem too lazy to read PU2 for the full list, though I suppose some would pick a handful if they bothered. Not everyone. Stuff like Signature Gear or the common 'just in case' skill are just much more likely to eat up the lonely 1-2 spare points left over after the main concept is filled.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I can see two or three reasons why the designer (Sean Punch, AFAIK) might have chosen to suggest an imposed limit on Perks:

1. They are underpriced for what they do. If the real cost is between 0.7 and 1.2 CP per Perk, then an actual cost of 1 CP is fine, and there's no game balance need to impose limits on Perks. But if a significant subset of them are actually undercosted and ought to cost between 1.5 and 2.5 CP then imposing a limit makes sense.

2. They make the game more complicated, so the designer saw it as desirable to put in (suggested) mechanics to reduce their per-character prevalance.

Many Perks are simple in nature, you buy it, it lets you do X, or it does X on its own.

But Perks can also be complex, by adding extra rules such as an FP cost per use, or the necessity of a skill or attribute roll. Such "implicit Limitations" can be added to Perks in order to counter-act item #1 above (if you add an FP cost per use to a Perk whose true value is 1.7 CP then its true value will drop to something that's less than 1.7 CP), but adds to the complexity of the game, and so in turn the number of Perks-per-character gets limited in order to avoid high complexity.

I admit I haven't looked much as the Perks in Power-Ups nor in Magical Styles. 1 CP stuff has a tendency to fall "below my radar". If it's so cheap, my assumption is that it probably won't make a difference except once in a quite rare while. But what I do seem to recall points to most Perks being fairly simple, rather than laden down with usage Limiations or other usage restrictions. Even nonLimited Perks adds a slight degree of complexity to the character, for each Perk, although much less so than if item #2 is in force.

3. It's GURPS' old problem of getting players to actually invest appreciable amounts of CPs in skills of their own free will, during character creation, instead of buying high Attributes (and in 4E also Talents). So the various rules on Perk limits are there in order to reward for and encourage the practice of actually purchasing high skills.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I find that I typically only take 1-2 perks at character generation, but add them as the character develops. My character with the most perks started with one, but now has ten, having acquired nine in the process of advancing from 225 to 390 points. They are a cheap method of getting a limited but focused improvement once you've got a clearer idea of just what happens in a campaign.

Re: Perk Limit
 

It's unlikely that "real" longbowman were all 380 point characters. If you were modeling the archers that served on the Mary Rose, or fought at Crécy how would you do it? Surely not as 380 point characters?

My problem is when people tell me that the RAW allows you to purchase "Style" or "Combat" perks above the 1/20 or 1/10 limits, which as far as can tell neither Power Ups 2, Martial Arts or Kromm's comments here actually supports. So either I'm reading these wrong, or they are.

Re: Perk Limit
 

The suggested perk limit is basically an arbitrary guideline for completely gameist reasons; if you want to model a realistic situation, you ignore any limits like that (just like you ignore point optimization).

Re: Perk Limit
 

Clearly still speaking Martian here. I don't care about house rules, and I don't care about "just throwing stuff out". I'm trying to understand what the actual rules are supposed to be and how they are intended to interact by the authors.


Whether I (or you, or anybody even Kromm) house rules them is immaterial here. I don't like house ruling things unless I feel I fully understand the RAW, and it's pretty clear that I do not (or you and the others do not). Please explain to me, with reference to the RAW, why I am wrong.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Er, the entire 'perk limit' thing is essentially a house rule. It isn't part of the basic RAW - it's an entirely open-ended recommendation.

But yes, if you want to follow that recommendation, then the rule appears to be "X perks total are allowed; Y of these may be 'combat perks', Z may be 'magic perks'", etc. It's not a very good rule, and certainly isn't one I'd bother following - it makes it so just about every character ever is restricted to no more than two or three 'combat' perks, no matter how much they make sense to the character concept.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Again, I'm not asking if the recommendations are a good idea, or whatever. I'm trying to understand how they are supposed to work in the first place. Some people seem to think that, as written, these recommendations permit perks that are otherwise "Style" (in Martial Arts) or "Combat" (in Power Ups 2) above the 1/20 and 1/10 limits. I do not understand where this is coming from. Either I am misunderstanding the recommendation as written or these other posters are.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I think a very strict reading of the rules may prove you right, but that the intent was probably this:

You get X 'General' perks. These can be chosen from any group in Power-Ups 2 except the Combat perks.

You may also get Y 'Combat' perks - 1 per 20 points in combat skills. These can be chosen from the Combat perks in Power-Ups 2 and any combat-related perks found elsewhere.

You may further get Z 'Style' perks - 1 per 10 points in a martial arts style. These can only be chosen from the perks listed for that specific combat style.

X, Y, and Z are separate allotments.

Re: Perk Limit
 

That's basically what Kromm is saying, except that he is also including Magic perks.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, that means though you can't just take Strongbow or even Concealed Carry Permit unless you have the appropriate skill points. Other people seem to be saying that that's not the case, and you can take those perks just by calling them "General Perks" instead but that's not how I read it, and I'm completely baffled that they do. I really wish they'd explain their reasoning.

I also wish that Kromm would pop back in and clarify the deal with "Social/Style Perks" like Concealed Carry Permit. Is it really his intention that you need 20 points in Guns or whatever to get one in GURPS? Probably not.

Re: Perk Limit
 

You may have missed this part of my post:

Concealed Carry Permit isn't listed in the Combat section. It's one of the 'combat-related perks found elsewhere' perks. Thus, it can be bought as a Combat perk, but it can also be bought as a 'General' perk.

Re: Perk Limit
 

It is, however, a Style Perk of several Styles. Therefore it seems to fit Kromm's definition of "Style Perk".

Re: Perk Limit
 

Yes, but that means you can buy it as a 'Style Perk', too. So you could buy it in one of three ways:

1. As a 'General' Perk.
2. As a 'Combat' Perk.
3. As a 'Style' Perk.

These three ways all have different allotments. Let's use a random character with 100 CP total, 50 from combat skills and 30 in a single style. He can have 4 'General' perks, 2 'Combat' perk, and 3 'Style' perks.

He currently has the following perks:

Style Familiarity (Combat)

Honest Face (General)
Base (General)
Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) (General OR Combat)

Off-Hand Weapon Training (Style)
Akimbo (Style)

He currently has up to 1 Combat perk slot, up to 2 General perk slots, and up to 1 Style perk slot, but only has 3 perk slots total.

He wants to buy Concealed Carry Permit, which is one of the perks of his combat style. It can fit in any of his three slots. He buys it. His maximum slot numbers haven't changed, but he now only has 2 perk slots total.

He next buys Grip Mastery, which is a Combat perk in his style. He now has up to 1 Combat perk, up to 1 General perk, and up to 1 Style perk - he can choose any perk. His current perks are:

Style Familiarity (Combat)
Concealed Carry Permit (General OR Combat OR Style)

Honest Face (General)
Base (General)
Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) (General OR Combat)

Off-Hand Weapon Training (Style)
Akimbo (Style)
Grip Mastery (Combat OR Style)

If we switched out Concealed Carry Permit for Ground Guard (Combat Perk not in his Style), he'd have 0 Combat perk slots, 1 General perk slot, and 0 Style perk slots left.

Calculate 'perk slots left' by the most-beneficial arrangement for the character.

Alternatively, have people state 'I'm buying this into my Combat perk allotment' or something, but that's a little silly.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Why do you think you can just retitle a "Combat" or "Style" as a "General" perk and then take it?

Again:
If you can just rename that Combat Perk as a General Perk then how is that actually limiting the character to the skill-based limit at all?

Martial Arts is even more restrictive, of course, as it only has the skill-based "slots".

Re: Perk Limit
 

True. Those are NPCs and I don't have to worry about their point cost.

I say that Kromm's explanation in this thread is RAW. It's how I read PU2 too (not that that's important), which doesn't cover Magic Perks but I'd assume that the book covering that have similar rules as PU2. So if "people" are proposing something else, they are not RAW.

Re: Perk Limit
 

You cannot, by RAW, rename perks to move them to another class.

Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) is a skill perk and Concealed Carry Permit is a social perk so they can be bought as general perks. If they're part of your style, they can be bought as style perks too.

And in my opinion, if Martial Arts, or similar books, list skill or social perks as combat perks, you can buy them as combat perks too.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I'm not. Look at Power-Ups 2: Perks again. There's a single section called 'Combat Perks'. These perks can not be 'retitled' to 'General', because no retitling is going on. Instead, what's happening is some perks are titled under 'General' AND 'Combat' (the 'combat-enhancing perks that are not in the General location). Most Style perks are titled under both 'Combat' AND 'Style'. Some perks are titled under 'General', 'Style', AND 'Combat' all at once.

Also, there are no rules restricting you from taking perks from a combat style under your general allotment. The extra perk per 10 points in style skills is a bonus allotment.

Re: Perk Limit
 

It sounds like that perk, in particular, is intended to be the least restricted kind, essentially "can be bought as part of any of the kinds of perk slots." (Excluding magic for simplicity.) By design, not by house rule.

Re: Perk Limit
 

This may be a Venn diagram issue. It sounds like Kromm is saying that the set of General Perks and the set of Combat Perks are mutually exclusive. So those two circles do not overlap.

However, Style perks may also include General and Combat perks, and potentially have some that are their own thing. So that set overlaps both Combat and General perks, and may also have a few of its very own (but maybe not).

I'd tend to put Social Perks inside of General perks, as a named class falling within the set of General Perks. Style perks may STILL overlap with these.

In the very particular case I talked about, perhaps in some other thread, for Strongbow and Special Exercises (Arm ST +1-3), my tendency would be to definitely place Special Exercises (Arm ST) in the General category.

Canonically, from PU2, Strongbow is a Combat Perk. OK . . . but how does one spend 20 points in combat skills alone, yet still have a perk that kicks in at DX+1 or DX+2?

In this particular case - and there may be others - as a GM I'd allow an archer character to buy strongbow if he'd spent 20 points in any bow-related character traits at all if I were to hew closely to the 20 points per combat perk suggestion. Otherwise, other than Fast Draw (Arrow), Quick-Ready (Bow), and Bow, you're really making it hard to make Strongbow count at the DX+1 level. So I'd count nearly anything, such as ST and I'd include the Arm ST bought as Special Exercises.

Another way to go would be to redefine Strongbow as a Perk that allows you to buy aspected Arm ST at up to 2 more levels, but only for the purposes of drawing bows. Or just make it Arm ST (Drawing Bows Only) for 3/level (same as Lifting ST) or 2/level (so it's less utility than Lifting ST) and take it out of the perks category altogether.

My point where I said "take it however you like" was narrowly focused to Strongbow, I think. I will admit to taking a weak view on the perk limit suggestions - I think the writing strongly implies that they're definitely suggestions, not "you should do this" rules - but my biggest issues is that I think Strongbow should be available to any serious archer type who has spent time practicing drawing and aiming a heavy bow.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Whats Quick-Ready Bow? Where is that from?

Re: Perk Limit
 

It's possible I'm remembering something from 3e. I thought there was a technique or perk that let you shave time off of the reload time for bows.

Ah . . . there it is. Martial Arts, p., 119: Quick-Shooting Bows.

Re: Perk Limit
 

The rules for Combat Perks in PU2 are the same as the rules in Martial Arts for Style Perks, though style-specific Style Perks get their own limit. But some Style Perks, such as Chi Resistance, are not Combat Perks.

So if you have Style Familiarity (La Verdadera Destreza) you can take the Chi Resistance (Kiai) Perk as a general perk, style perk, or style-specific style perk.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Yeah, I should have read more closely. The full text isn't just "points spent in skills," but

The "points in a template" solves my Strongbow issue, since points spent in DX, ST, archery and craft skills would all count.

Re: Perk Limit
 

I guess I should have reread those rules before I made my post, as "Combat-effective perks from other categories – ... – count as combat perks for this purpose." may have invalidated my Chi Resistance example.

But the quote didn't say "points in a template" it said "points spent on the skills and techniques of a combative character template, fighting style, or similar abilities package that offers combat perks" so points in DX and ST wouldn't count.

Re: Perk Limit
 

Might or might not, depending on whether the character has a character template or abilities package that includes them and also offers combat perks.

Re: Perk Limit
 

That gets back to my nitpick with strongbow, though - the skills and techniques of an archer are basically, Bow, Bow, Fast-Draw (Bow), Bow, Armory (Bow), and Bow. Maybe I missed one. :-)

I'd label Strongbow as a perk that allows an exception similar to that given to Capoeira stylists - some perks you can just buy right away once you start in the style. I would likely slap a few other trivialities on it: min of 1 point in the skill, and probably either +1 ST or Arm ST, to represent repetitive drawing of the bow. But that 20 point minimum means that the +1 ST for a bow you get at DX+1 is pointless, since even if you do Bow at 8 points, F-D (Bow) at 8 points, and Armoury (Bow) at 4 points . . . you're still at DX+2 already.