Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Low-Tech tells us that horn and bone have a (0.5) armor divisor when doing impaling damage. Should animal attacks be modified accordingly? Should the relevant advantages be bought with this limitation to be realistic? Will Bruno's minotaur weep when she discovers she can no longer impale three characters with one goring charge?

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

That would be a rather silly rule. Imagine an X-joule impact with a punch, and an X-joule impact with a punch by a hand with a spike growing out of one's knuckle. Do you seriously believe the former will do more damage than the latter, e.g. while punching a guy in a leather vest of some sort?

Now, some bone weapons might break on a hit, but that's a whole nother issue.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

It doesn't answer the question, but I'd note that the bone in Low Tech is specifically dead bone. That's rather different from living bone.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Bone and horn, removed from the animal it was growing on, reshaped, and attached to some kind of tool is not necessarily the same as bone and horn appendages attached to the animal growing it in a fairly optimal way. This is not to say that an argument couldn't be made that bone/horn/claws should get an armor divisor, but arguing from bone/horn weapons isn't that argument.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

It's been suggested that fists should also have a (0.5) armor divisor. If you adopt that, you might justify that claws and teeth get the same (to make metal weapons special).

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Maybe this post by Dan Howard is relevant here.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Not really, because LT stated impaling damage and DH is talking about cutting damage.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Y,youre right.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Well, ivory (teeth) isn't the same as bone, but it's probably reasonable to double edge protection vs teeth. As for characters, meh.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

What Ulz and TBC said -- there's a huge difference between living horn growing out of an animal's body, and that same horn, long-dead and cured. The latter has a (0.5) divisor, the former does not.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Maybe it should though, I've been thinking (0.5) for living horn/bone and (0.2) for long-dead and cured...

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Again, this would result in an attacks with the same net energy dealing less damage with a sharp edge. A bond club and a bond blade of the same mass swung at the same speed . . .

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

No, less injury getting through the armor, but the same damage.

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Personally, I think that the issue here is that if you take a bone ax and a bone mace of the same weight. Adding an edge (that concentrates force on a smaller surface) is going to greatly reduce damage.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I'm not sure why. The reduced damage is because the material can't hold an edge very well. This applies equally regardless of whether it is live or dead. The main difference is its toughness/brittleness. Dead bone breaks more easily than live bone/horn/ivory,etc.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I must be thinking of really old brittle stuff, not the recently extracted bone/horn.

The (0.5) vs armor would also extend to punches and kicks, not just to claws/bites.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

So a small amount of armor would go a long way against unarmed striking making grappling that much more important?

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Why? A punch with an effective mass of 2lbs delivering X joules and a 2-pound club delivering X joules, both assuming an impact area comparable to knuckle size shouldn't have vastly different structural damage (injury) capabilities.

It also leads to silliness that a 1-damage attack with a punch (or claw, or tooth) never does injury. And humans often roll 1d-2 to 1d-4 on bites, resulting in 1 point of damage.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Because flesh isn't delivering all that energy, when it hits something hard it squishes back, damaging itself, or spreading itself over the surface that it hits.

All you have to do to see the difference is punch or kick someone wearing a little bit of padding vs no padding, to see the huge difference.

That's not silliness, that's pretty realistic, minor bruises and scratches aren't deadly 1 HP injuries, your cat shouldn't be able to take you out of action in seconds.

This (0.5) modification wouldn't solve all the issues with the huge out of proportion ST sw dmg tables, but it'd mitigate some of the silliness of people punching through armor with th ST.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Flesh is squishy yes, but I don't attack people with my boobs, nor my rather excessively padded hips. Nor do martial artists other than folk/movie heroes who have learned the dreaded iron buttock technique.

You have to be REALLY fat for there to be more than a thin layer of thin skin and some tendons over the knuckles, knees, and elbows - and the heel and blade of the foot are covered in some terrifyingly tough skin, not "squishy" skin.

Adding a 0.5mm layer of leather over the 2 lb mace doesn't divide its damage in half.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

More importantly, this would make it nigh impossible to kill someone by punching them in the head - which happens, and not just "When Pro Boxers Attack, tonight on FOX".

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Critical hits could still lead to occasional lethality, but punching someone in the skull would have an improbably good chance of not doing anything at all.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I am missing out on so much for not having MA . . .

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

The concussion rules in GURPS are more than lacking, that's true in general for blunt trauma, but most times if you punch someone in the skull it's not the skull which breaks, it's the knuckles which break and your average Joe isn't likely to be doing much in the way of blunt trauma to the brain.

Besides, skilled fighters get damage bonuses, they will do real damage, but having a kitty cat, or some 90 lbs wimp, take out a normal person in a few seconds is highly unrealistic, and not in a good cinematic way.

I've sat still and let a decently trained but wussy black belt throw multiple punches at my head, defending only by presenting the crown of my head to the blows, and I can tell you that he hurt his hands way worse than he hurt me, especially since if I even had any bruises they didn't bother me.
(It was funny how he ran away when I told him it was my turn now...)

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

If it's not delivering that much energy, then it isn't doing that much damage.



Is it pretty realistic if you have a sharp bone and a blunt bone, of the same mass, moving at the same velocity, having the same kinetic energy and momentum, and yet the sharp one has poorer penetration?

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

The sharp claws get a damage bonus, it's what you pay when you buy Claws/Sharp Bite.

Besides, isn't that the same argument against a mace vs axe/sword and mail?

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Actull you don't, you get an injurer bonus, bue all it does is change the damage type to cutting.

Blunt Claws and hoves give you a damage bonus. not sharp ones or talons (Long talons give you both)

Teeth never give you the damage bonus, just injury type.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

How well trained can he be if he repeatedly punches one of the hardest parts of the skull? Forehead and Crown are just bad places to punch.

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Not as well trained as the guy who can choose instead of stepping away to have his crown hit instead of his face?
*grin*

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Good point. :)

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

GURPS represents this quite well actually. This mistake might be in overassigning skill to real people.

One common misconception about "black-belts" is that they are a "Master". This is far from the truth, at 1st dan (1st degree black belt), the student has learned and can perform with a degree of competance the basic skills of a style. Instructors are usually at least a 3rd degree black-belt, often higher. 1st degree black-belts are more like interns. Thus at 1st degree black, a practioner should have "style familiarity" and Attribute Level+0 in all required skills. This is because the student is evaluated on their ability to perform techniques, forms, katas, etc. not actually fight. So it's the number of skill points invested, not overall skill that is graded. Also be aware that most style don't teach "karate", but teach "karate sport/art".

So let's say your wussy black-belt has a ST8. Let's say he's a 2nd dan (decently trained), and give him attribute level+2 in all required skills... perhaps even a few points in techniques. Since he likely learned karate sport/art, that gives him karate at DX-1. Let's be generous and say he has a DX of 12.

Effect: To strike the skull he rolls at a effective skill of 5 (DX based Punch), so to improve that let's take AoA (Determined) and a Telegraphic Attack... that gives a skill roll of 13, so he'll land most of those hits... and you're not defending. ST8 thrusting damage is 1d-3, for a punch that's 1d-4. His Karate skill is not high enough to give a bounus, so 1d-4 vs. DR2 results in 0 damage barring a critical hit.

You would get some bruises out of it (and possibly some real damage if he missed by 1 and hit the face and rolled high on the damage roll), and his hands would likely be bruised (unless using open palm or a hammer fist, but then his damage is reduced to 1d-5)... both below the scale of GURPS injury.

Had he not been so wussy (ST9 or ST10), or have been an instructor (thus getting a +1 damage bonus due to karate default of attribute+0), then damage would have been an average of 2/3 a point per hit (1/6 damage x4 for brain hit)... if both conditions were true damage would have averaged 2 points per hit.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

As to the OT of this thread... I would not apply fractional armor divisors to cutting bites and claws. However extending the rule in LT concerning cutting weapons & blunt trauma to impaling natural attacks and increasing the threshold to DRx3 for cutting natural attacks might achieve what you're looking for... without producing wierd effects when compared to blunt damage.

I presented a houserule for exactly this in another thread. Although it was directed towars stone (& bone/horn) weapons, it could conceivable apply to natural attacks.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Wouldn't that be a GURPS Parry, though? Interposing a less vulnerable body part sure sounds like it.

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That's why it would be funky for sword vs. mace if they had the same mass of the striking part. Rock beats LASER, anyone?

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Asta Kask probably has a point, this maybe should be considered an Aggressive Parry on my part using the crown of my head instead of my arms...

As for your numbers, he was a 4th dan then, though I don't think he ever got past 7th, he'd been an instructor for years at the point I'm talking about, and at 6'2" and 165 lbs, while I put him easily in the wussy 9 ST category, I wouldn't peg him as a ST 8.

This is also part of why I don't see that much of a threat from most karate practitioners, above and beyond any normally trained fighter, unless they're 8th+ dan types.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

The problem with "karate" (especially in North America) is that there is a LOT of stuff being taught as "karate", much of which doesn't have much to do with even the Japanese sport, let alone a combative self defense style. I've seen "karate" schools teaching Taequondo, I've seen "karate" schools teaching thai kickboxing (?), I've seen "karate" schools teaching what looks like Judo (!!)... and then there's the "It looks sort of like someone watched a lot of movies and thinks they're a 'Karate Master' now" type of "karate".

At least in an English speaking context, the word "karate" is almost meaningless without several qualifiers tacked on to give you some information about what the hell the person is talking about (and then you need to go research it).

I'd be cautious about writing off people who "know karate" entirely - there ARE schools teaching pretty honest Japanese style Karate in North America, and even the ones teaching Something Else can be teaching perfectly legitimate styles, just under a confusing name. And because they're mostly independent studios, you can't be sure that they're all just "black belt factories" - even in a commercial franchise a particular teacher could turn out to be a hard-case with useful knowledge ;)

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Or the fact that the majority of legitimate schools teach Karate Sport or Art rather than the pure self-defense versions.

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If nothing else, Karate Art will train your endurance and balance in a rough semblance of a combat skill. Yes, much of what you would learn is useless at best, but your body will pick up more useful muscle memory than someone who spent the same time practicing Games (FPS).

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And it keeps the people going to McDojos from becoming Unfit, though for some of those dojos calling the hitting they do as Karate Art is being generous.

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Wow, I'm 6'(well, Five foot, Eleven and 7/8th inchs...) and 160, and I wouldn't consider Stating myself lower than ST 10 or 11. Of course, I also have a fairly physically demanding career, so that could account for it.


It depends on how they were trained, I guess. Whether their training included realistic sparring or was more "sport-like". I know some Karate guys who were tough hombres. They also took Krav Maga, Mauy Thai, Jujitsu and boxing, so it could be cross-training!

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

This is actually why I took TKD (well, physiotherapy in general, buying off my major DX and ST penalty on my left side, and reducing Klutz).

I'm under no illusions that I learned anything more than Karate Art, but that was due to me definitely having some form of Pacifism and a major mental block against hitting live targets. My school taught full contact, full force hits for competition fighting, as is usual for TKD comeptitions. Other students at my school were learning Karate Sport, and I'd bet the Cuban team that Aggressive Parried our team into several bone fractures were using full Karate. Our team's coach commented when they came back from the tournament that the Cubans beat the crap out of us with "yellow belt" techniques used very effectively.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I'm 6' but I do stat myself at ST 8, I might grant that I'm ST 8 HP 10 or 11, but I have never developed any upper body ST

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I guess there's something for variation between different people. But then again, I know for a fact that I can lift 150-160lbs over my head in less than 4 seconds, as I've done it repeatedly on a daily basis.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

Actual performance is a far better benchmark than mass or height. I'm 5'9" and I have to struggle to lift 30 lbs above my head. I think I'd be simpler to stat up with the Weak Arms disad than a straight ST penalty though - I can throw my weight around effectively and I do much better once you put the weight on my back or hips.

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That's the way it is for everyone though. I have trouble lifting anything above my head, but can and have carried 68 pounds on my back for over a mile. (What I won't do for diet pepsis.)

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The ability to carry 60-70 pounds on your back for over a mile doesn't argue for a ST score of higher than 8. A normal ST 10 guy shouldn't have problems carrying 100-120 lbs. around for such a short distance.

That's not to say that you might not have Lifting ST higher than 8. Just that this particular example doesn't prove anything beyond ST 8+.

According to Kromm, the 8xBL benchmark is supposed to measure how much an adventurer can somehow manhandle into a fireman's carry, as that's the most likely reason a typical GURPS character would have to lift something 'above' his head. It's not meant to measure any kind of legal weightlifting record. For that, you really need training, or you'll be managing far less than your ST would suggest that you should be able to lift over your head.

That means that anyone capable of lifting and carrying a typical adult (ca 150 lbs.) a decent distance is ST 10+. I usually find that benchmark the most reliable and accurate guide for real world ST scores. Of course, since a typical adult in Iceland is 180 lbs, the typical ST for someone who can handle another person on his back is 11+.

Re: Claw-claw-bite and armor
 

I can carry much more than 60 to 70 pounds for a while, but walking a mile sucks no matter how much or little I carry. Good strength but unfit.