How powerful are your DF PC's?
We play are free-form DF game. I say freeform because it's not "true DF" but merely getting a lot of inspiration from it and it's all about hack 'n' slash.
Now I have a slight proble mwith one character. OK his not actually a problem ,and you might argue that the problem is actually me, the GM. Anyway, the players started out at only 150 pts, and have gotten a lot of CP each session. I try to create pretty challenging encounters (IMO), and I have almost killed several PC's a few times already. But one character is very powerful compared to the others. He is super DPS and super tank. He has Skill: 24, wpm (shield and axe), a large shield and a magical (AD(2)), dwarven axe. He does about 2d+9 (2) cut damage with each attack, and can easily make 3 atks with -4 deceptive (14/14/14) each turn without even spending FP. He only have a move of 3 though. He has DR:12 over almost all of his body (that's 9+3 natural). He has a parry at 15+3 and a block at 11+3. His dodge is only 7+3 though. His will is 12, (or 15 with Mental Strength). He is now at around 260 pts, so he is only 10 pts higher than a normal starting DF delver. Now my question is, is he out-of-proportion-powerful compared to your PC's or is he pretty fitting for a typical Knight. If this is also the level your PC's are at, what types of monsters do you regularly throw at them? ---- I'm not asking for how to get this character down" because *I could just design some monster that ignored DR and whose attacks could only be dodged. Or something that had malediction attacks and attacked with a skill of 20+. however I prefer to have normal brute-like creatures in my dungeons. Ogres, orcs ,trolls. And keep special attacks to the unique and rare monsters. I just find that this character is immune to most normal monsters and can kill them before the mage even gets to warm up a fireball. And I wondered if this was also how other people experienced DF melee-specialists (tanks). I've started to wonder if my common mobs are simply not pwoerful enough, or if I should design the encounters to be specificity tailored to attack his weaknesses. I very much want to avoid the last because I find that too much meta-play'ish. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
He's pretty powerful compared to a standard 250 pt DF knight, but not obscenely so. The powerful armor and the upgraded axe are the big advantages.
Couple of thoughts: 1) Don't let your DF game devolve into pure combat on the PCs' terms. Read the sections on Dungeon Parkour and think about terrain. This guy suffers horribly in mud, and if the ceiling starts to collapse, all that armor becomes a liability. If you give a variety of challenges, people can't overspecialize into super tank, because super tank gets stuck in the mud. 2) Introduce a cheap Enchantment (like $50 cheap) that provides Hardening 2, and let all the PCs get it. Then make sure that all the (mostly) intelligent monsters like orcs and ogres are wearing armor with Deflect +1, Fortify +1, Lighten 25%, and Harden 2, just like the PCs are. 3) You may want to consider adding Fiendish templates to a lot of your monsters. Near the end of my first DF campaign, I had an event that meant that all future foes were going to be demonically enhanced. That let me bump the "average" foes' skils, STs, and DXs up a couple of points so they could at least compete with the insanely skilled delvers. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Furthermore, if his Dodge if 7 (You understand that encumbrance drops dodge too, right?) and his move is 3, then I'm assuming he has an Extra Heavy Encumbrance? You realize that fighting costs 1 point of fatigue, plus your encumbrance rating (4) plus 1 if you're under strenuous conditions (fighting in the heat while wearing lots of heavy, metal armor). That's between 5 to 6 fatigue every fight, which takes close to an hour to recover from. I doubt he has more than three fights in him before he's seriously sucking wind. Finally, given that you love to throw slow, strong, unskilled opponents at him, he seems pretty ideal for defeating such characters. He seems highly specialized, in any case. Take the axe and the shield away from him, and he's useless. I'm not advocating that you do that, I'm just pointing out that he's a one-trick pony who's been allowed to exploit that trick again and again. For example, put him on a ship that's rocking back and force with a spray of the sea making footing treacherous and he finds himself facing agile, mobile sea-elves who keep throwing lots of darts at him and circling around him, he'll be at a considerable disadvantage (never mind exploiting his actual disadvantages). |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
He seems like a "one trick pony" and will have serious problems if facing many types of creatures.
Any terrain except flat is going to be a problem. (Climb up to the goblin archers on a ledge anyone?) A proper giant will likely threaten a breakage of even his shield. Multiple attacks hurt his defences a lot even with weapon master so large groups of relatively powerless creatures that are just good enough to penetrate his armor usually are a problem. Many types of enemy spells would be quite bad for him. Few archers with the space to move and enough blodkin point arrows will just pinkushion him slowly at few hits/time.. So if the challenges are allways the same: "Standard orc warriors charging you" he will be very effective, if it is more like a "traditional dungeon crawl" where you have different types of monsters he will at times be very effrective and at other times allmost totally ineffective. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
You asked for comparable power levels, so I'll show you one of the first Knights I cobbled together:
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Grin BattlebornYour character is in the same ballpark as my character. The main differences seem to be his vastly superior gear (likely acquired over time, so not really a "balancing factor" to worry about) and I'm a little sketchy on him having such high skill in two combat skills at "only" 250 points. I suspect he lacks some of my character's versatility (which is saying something, as this character is fairly focused). Even so, you'll note that my character does more absolute damage than your character, and is far more mobile. So, I think the character in your game has some wonkiness going on, but he's clearly not beyond the pale. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
I routinely make Wood Elf Scouts in DF than can do 3d (2) imp with Skill 20 beyond like 200 yards. (ST 13, Weapon Master, Strongbow, Heroic Archer, Welsh Longbow*.) Their average base damage is 10-11 and if they were to the OP's tank they could do 8 points of damage on an average shot and a maximum of 24 points.
* GURPS Fantasy Tech 1, p. 11. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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I'm not saying you need a ton of malediction-throwers or ghosts in your dungeons. Far from it. Just mix it up a bit. Examples: 1. Slime gnolls. Modest HP, good Dmg, and Injury Tolerance (Diffuse). 2d+9 damage becomes 2 points of damage. But the wizard with Explosive Fireball is going to knock 'em out of the park. 2. Mobs. So your dude can one-hit kill a Gnoll Champion. Great. What if 30 Gnoll Champions attack? It's not about him anymore. He can kill all he can, but will the rest of the party survive? This puts the spotlight on everyone else -- his first 6-8 kills will be memorable, but then you start taking it for granted and worry about what everyone else is doing. 3. A troll with Reflect Damage armor on. You hit me? No, you hit yourself! This switches the focus to ranged attacks (assuming the armor only bounces melee; a reasonable way to game it) and wrestling, as the knight now has to focus on grappling the troll and getting him out of the armor. See what I mean? You don't have to pull anything crazy out of your butt or intentionally try to hose him. But you do need variety in your monsters. If every single fight comes down to one-on-[1-3] melee combat, DR, HP, and basic damage, then yeah, of course he's going to cakewalk through it. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
Keep the "kill the melee monster" ideas coming! :)
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Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Seriously. That enchantment should have been made costlier for DF, just like the "Enlarge" spell. Using costs as written, ALL players will buy a Penetrating weapon first, and then start to think about other possible enchantments/magical items. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
Thanks :)
As I also noted in my OP, I am aware that it's mostly my own fault. It partly stems from me stealing D&D dungeons for the game, and those are primarily "dungeon room with monsters". However, as you guys also suggest, most of the ways to counter a tank like this is by punishing his low mobility. But that doesn't help me as the Wizard routinely cast Haste and/or Flight on him. As for "this is how you make a tank-killer"-ideas. They are great, but I already know how to do that. My point was exactly that I didn't wanted to fill my dungeons with monsters specifically designed to kill him. I don't mind (and already use) the odd monster that has some attacks that ignore DR or target Will and so on, but I want to keep those rare. Making "mass attack" with creatures so the tank cant' be everywhere is a good one, as it means the other players also get to do something. And it is something I use, although not very often. --- I think the conclusion is that I have maybe just been a bit lazy in my encounter designs. Which is mostly because I steal from old modules. Well, we ended last game at "the boss fight", after that I will see if I have time to make some more all-round challenging encounters. All though I still love my brute mobs :( |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
I got a similiar problem with a Mithical Greece Campaign (DF in other clothes).
A tipical trick is to change the enviroment: a sailing section usually works well with most dwarf-like tanks (since many like to dislike water and be unable to swim), shield user could be tricked in the open by quicker enemies and be flanked or outgunned. Big enemies could hit with massive knockback or body lock with claws/jaws, same as elusive assassins trained to arm lock and target chinks in armor; disarm and feint are the tipical boss skills. Luckily the combat is not only a matter of "to hit" skill, damage and DR: think outside the box and hit them with something unexpected. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
I totally understand, because I love brutes too. But your player has developed his character under the pressure of waves and waves of brutes - he's now an optimized brute-smasher due to largely only needing to deal with brutes.
There's two ways to spend character points - one's with a pre-determined vision of where you want your character to develop to, the other is in response to challenges you encounter. It's very hard to stick to the first, when you're under pressure from the second - and if the the challenges tend to be of a very specific type, it's very very easy to just keep spending points on the same things. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Highly mobile opponents that can Move and Attack to get a hit and run attack in and then dart away before he can counterattack - but a swashbuckler or other mobile fighter PC will have more luck. Opponents that stand off and use ranged attacks by preference - even though he's got good armor, they can target vulnerable points or just get lucky, and he can't close distance very quickly. Magic-using opponents. Sure, he's got decent resistance rolls, but not foolproof ones. Spellcasters are a real threat, and he'll need the support of any wizards, etc. in the group to deal with them while he slogs through the ground troops. Traps. Not likely to spot them in time, not able to outrun or dodge most of them. Encounters with hordes or large creatures where the logical response is to run - and he's got a Move 3. Maybe a mage will be nice and cast Haste on him - or he gets to play heroic rearguard and die delaying the foe so the rest of the party can get away. Special attacks, like with corrosive slimes. Traps. Magic. Special attacks. Needing to run. None of these are unfair to the party as a whole, but can keep this one PC from appearing more effective than all the rest. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Generally, the advice on your tank not being able to be everywhere at once has helped me. Horde creatures (Zombies yay!), or more than one 'boss' creature pretty much means that the Knight cant cover everyone and maybe even due to the multiplicity of incomming attacks may not be able to cover himself fully. As far as using D&D modules, ask yourself if your using the right ones, and if your perception of those adventures fits the DF builds. The 250 pt df templates generally dont 'line up' with 1st level expectaitons and are usually much higher as at 250 points and lvl 20 skills, these guys are obviously 'seasoned' adventurers. I have tuned D&D modules of about 5-7th level to 185 DF-ish builds (Deserts of Desolation, White Plume Mountain) and had some good success. For the level of optimizing that appears to be going on and the love of metal on meat combat, maybe G1-3 might be more in lines of what your looking for. SOmehting 10th level-ish on up? Nymdok |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
You could have a wizard that made the dungeon have cast a permanant Heat Metal spell for all metal inside the dungeon.
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Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Sadly thats kind of a 'one time one shot' solution. Not every dungeon is gonna have heat metal across the lot of it. Nymdok |
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Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
You can keep using brutes if your brutes start using better <or more suicidal> tactics.
Better: Grapple; if the first orc swings his sword at your PC and nothing happens, then the next three aren't going to keep swinging there swords around aimlessly, there going to grapple your knight, pull him to the ground, and <baring the other PCs interfering> pull off his helmet before stabbing him in the face/neck. Blunt Trauma: If the troll with the club can't harm your knight directly he might instead try to harm him indirectly; smash him into walls. Flee! Cowardly goblins are not going to keep desperately fighting against a guy who is immune to there attacks and mows through 4 of them every second, they are going to turn tail, and run, as pointed out before your PC is likely in heavy encumberance, at three move he's never going to catch those goblins so he can either start burning fatigue, or other faster party members do the damage. Ranged! Not every brute need use a club or axe, thrown boulders, hand balista; or even just lots and lots of arrows, combine this with Flee! above and your PC is either burning fatigue like no one's business or basically just becomes a stationary ward against meele combat. Opening Volly (similar to ranged); it is not unusual for monsters to have some sort of ranged attack; having the room full of orcs open with a volly of bodkin arrow before tossing there bows/crossbows aside to move in with swords to finish the job will mean that your tank of a PC is rightly penalized for his low move score- he likely also walks at the front of the group and will also therefore take more of the bolts then the rest, who are more likely to make dodge rolls, and less impacted by the armor divisor. Water: What are a bunch of under-armored under-armed orcs to do when they fear the approach of invincible men in metal armor? Get wet. Flood the whole damned dungeon, ditch there ineffective leather armor, toss the swords and get some knives and garrotes and swimming skill- stick to trying to make the PCs unable to swim and let drowning do the rest! Suicidal Acid and fire: Potions are cheap when they are dangerous and unstable, arm your goons with a few vials of greek fire, acid, poison, or even just powdered lye and water, parrying is useless, it will still splash on you, dodging is the only way to avoid it, and hitting those goons in meele combat before there done throwing there potions away is just as bad at being struck by them <The bad guy dies horribly of course> Environment: Were in a volcano right? The heroes are coming, start digging into the lava vein! Having the enemies try to use the environment, especially from well spread locations means that everyone has to do something to stop there plans, releasing lava, collapsing bridges, If orcs are willing to throw there lives away rushing mr indestructible, then they should be willing to do so while covered in vials of the combination components for vitriol, your PC will be much less eager to wade through 4 orcs per second if every tenth orc turns into a spray of armor and weapon dissolving acid when hit. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
Underwater quest?
Must defeat a foe honorably using a ritual weapon? |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
In a D&D game I once ran, the characters had to cross a desert to get to the dungeon. It was so hot and tiring, they ended up leaving all their armor in the sand before getting there.
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Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
More for the list ...
Bolas and Flails. With Jamming Glue for more deadly foes or escape. Cheap low-tech disposable single-shot ranged weapon whilst closing. Flails to get around shields and squish incapacitated foes. Perfectly acceptable brute weaponry. Jamming Glue is also really cheap and easy to use for the more intelligent brutes. If jamming glue is too high-tech for the image, then plain old flammable oil/tar/etc and a torch is always an entertaining tactic against heavily armoured foes! >=D |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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On a serious note, I would trap him in some thick mud, then smoke him out. Pretty easy scenario to set up, really. The dungeon's water supply gets diverted when the adventures inadvertently break the dam holding it back. This causes a mudslide, greatly reducing the tank character's mobility. Then the mud continues on, ripping torches from the wall and dropping them into the monster's food stores, which happen to be dried hay and other grains. Now he's stuck, unable to leave, and unable to breathe. I would make sure the adventurers were aware that they were completely at fault in causing the disaster, too, by casually dropping hints the whole time about the nature of the fake wall (which was really one part of the dam). Not a particularly lethal scenario, but I think he'd learn his lesson. For added danger, have the fire spread to the wooden beams holding up the dungeon complex. Trapped in mud + debilitating smoke + falling ceiling. Maybe add some mudmen (gotta have some beforehand, so it doesn't look like you're being cruel, though). They can creep up on him while he's trapped. Maybe they could be assisted by some smoke monsters, whose vision isn't obscured by the smoke. Be creative! |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
A cascade of burning/sticky/thick crude oil down an angled corridor would do horrific things to those who can't get out of the way quickly enough. Have a smiling orc smash the barrels (starting the flood) and then drop the torch; just to make it personal when they get to said orc and extract their revenge.
Or a monster that spits giant wads of snot that instantly (on contact) dries to a stone-like consistency combined with a severe weight. Weigh him down even further until he literally doesn't have the strength to move. Then have the orcs come in with axes and maces. Poor Knight. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
Sometimes I find myself resisting thinking up ways to specifically target the tank as unrealistic hosing. But it doesn't have to be that way. It can actually be quite realistic.
Consider: If he's wasting tons of monsters, he's going to get a reputation with the monsters. He may shine for a while, but at some point they're going to get wise and put their heads together to target him specifically. The monsters might come up with some pretty wild tar and feather acts. This goes for any character who's getting overpowered. I wouldn't use it too many times. But a few times as realism would suggest could really add some fun. Actually, most players I know would find it flattering. |
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Designing defences against that is just good sense. |
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In GURPS, whether Dungeon Fantasy or not, wearing heavy armour and using military weapons is a good way to survive battles and kill enemies. It makes sense that enemies that are not fond of being killed but cannot afford to meet you on equal terms would come up with strategies for dealing with rich Knights in full harness. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
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Presumably, the PCs are exceptional. As silly as DF can be, I don't think it assumes everybody is a 250+ pt character. The goblins may have all kinds of clever ways to deal with 150 knights. But now they've heard news of "The Dwarven Axe" who's leveled three goblin cities and he's coming this way. Now the GM can devise the ultimate tank trap... goblin style. |
Re: How powerful are your DF PC's?
Name: Ifreedan
Race: Half-elf Height: 1,83 m Weight: Class: Knight/Mystic knight ST 14 (40 pts) HP: 14 (0 pts) DX 18 (140 pts) Will: 10 (0 pts) IQ 10 ( 0 pt) Per: 10 (0 pts) HT 13 (30 pts) FP: 13 (0 pts) Basic Speed: 6,50 (-25 pts) Basic Move: 6 (0 pt) Basic Damage: Swg: 2d+2 Thrst: 1d+1 = TOTAL: 185 pts Languages: Spoken Written Custo Valkar Native Native 0 Advantages: Half-elf (20 pts) * DX+1; Magery 0; Social Stigma (Half-Breed) High Pain Threshold (10 pts) Combat Reflexes (15 pts) Born War Leader 5 (25 pts) Weapon Master (Broadsword and Shield) (25 pts) Striking ST 2 (10 pts) Hard to Subdue 2 (4 pts) Hard to Kill 2 (4 pts) Eldritch Talent 4 (20 pts) Imbue 3 (Magical -10%) (36 pts) Luck (15 pts) = TOTAL: 184 pts Perk: - Style Familiarity: Sword and Shield Fighting (1 pt) - Off-hand Weapon Training (1 pt) - Shield Wall Training (1 pt) TOTAL: 3 pts Disadvantages: Bloodlust (12) (-10 pts) Bad Temper (12) (-10 pts) Vow (Never refuse a challenge to combat) (-10 pts) Sense of Duty (Adventuring Companions) (-5 pts) Sense of Duty (Wynlla) (-10 pts) Overconfidence (12) (-5 pts) = TOTAL: -50 pts Quirks: - See yourself as a mage (-1 pt) - Consider Portsmouth a barbarian reign (-1 pt) - Unnatural Features: White hair (-1 pt) - Responsive (-1 pt) - Broad-minded (-1 pt) = TOTAL: -5 pts Skills: Broadsword (A) DX+6 [24]-24 Fast-Draw (Broadsword) (E) DX+1 [1]-19† Brawling (A) DX+1 [2]-19 Wrestling DX [2]-18 Knife (E) DX [1]-18 Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-20 Bow (A) DX+1 [4]-19 Armoury (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11 Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11 Leadership (A) IQ+6 [4]-16§ Strategy (H) IQ+5 [4]-15§ Tactics (H) IQ+5 [4]-15§ Savoir-Faire (Military) (E) IQ+5 [1]-15§ Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-17 Stealth (A) DX-1 [1]-17 Swimming (E) HT [1]-13 Riding (Horse) (A) DX-1 [1]-17 First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10 Thaumatology (VH) IQ+2 [2]-12# = TOTAL: 66 pts Special Skills: Vampiric Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+2 [2]-20§ Envenomed Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Crippling Blow (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Reinforce Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Ghostly Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Annihilating Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Penetrating Strike (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Strike of Negation (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Toxic Strike (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Sudden Death (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Dazzling Display (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Incendiary Weapon (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Burning Strike (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Project Blow (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Far Shot (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Shattershot (Broadsword) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Dancing Weapon (Broadsword)(VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Blunting Armor (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Impenetrable Armor (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Padded Armor (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Expand Armor (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Widen Shield (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Reinforce Shield (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Vengeful Defense (Shield) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ Energizing Defense (Shield) (VH) DX+1 [1]-19§ = TOTAL: 26 pts † Includes +1 for Combat Reflexes § Includes +5 for Born War Leader # Includes +4 from Eldritch Talent = TOTAL: 77 pts Techniques: Counterattack (Broadsword) 24 (6 pts) Feint (Broadsword) 28 (5 pts) Total: 11 pts --- Attributes: 185 pts Languages: 0 pt Advantages: 184 pts Perks: 3 pts Skills: 66 pts Special Skills: 26 Techniques: 11 pts Disadvantages: -50 pts Quirks: -5 pts TOTAL: 420 pts ====== We started with 300 points (few players) and when my character main character was around 430 points, he died (he was ressurected, but I didn't want to play with him again), so I've made a new character , this Knight-Mystic Knight (with 400, now he's 420). I think that, if used appropriately, it's a nice character and fun to play, thanks to his martial abilities and imbuement powers. The funny thing is that he thinks and calls himself as a mage, not as a warrior... |
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