Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

UT56, also here. And no, that's not part of the assumptions of AR, it's part of assumptions I made because I didn't want all hackers to be defeated by people saying "I turn my wireless off."

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Specifically this guy. It's also used in THS, so it's definitely "Used in GURPS", but more importantly, I think, is that it's not a gaming term, but rather the way that computers are increasingly being used in the real world. Smart phones apps already use quite a lot of AR.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Well, I don't mind Augmented Reality as presented by UT - it seems mainly that my problems are with the assumptions you made in order to make deckers less prone to being worthless (although how they're worthless when they're an integral part of a team in the first place and turn off the security/open the doors/steal the data etc in the first place I have no idea) not sure why but you seem to want to take them out of the niche they were designed for and make them into a character more akin to a technological wizard - and also to allow them the ability to hack EVERYTHING.

Aside from those assumptions I thought the original idea you had for hacking stuff based on ritual magic was a good simplification that I'd be happy to use for the most part.

EDIT: I did have to look up Augmented Reality in UT, because I haven't had a character who utilized it before and also none of my TL10 players have shown an interest in it, so I didn't recognize the term, I've only read over that section a couple of times.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

You can call me a neo-luddite for all I care but I don't see a use for a Smart Phone to start with. I can communicate just fine with a land line, I don't have a cellphone except for emergencies and I don't give out the number.

I have a digital camera to take pictures with and a laptop and desktop to play games/browse the web/etc.

If I'm outside enjoying nature I don't need some smart phone or whatnot else to alter my perception of reality to do so. Nor do I feel the need to be "jacked in" all the time so to speak.

I only used facebook to play games, and haven't even logged into it in six months. I guess it mainly boils down to how you perceive the world I suppose.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Well, you're certainly not on par with most Americans, especially the younger ones, and your view would be even less prevalent 65 years from now, I'm guessing.

According to this 16% of people don't have a landline anymore, 13% have one but almost never use it, and 82% of people have cell phones. A third of people under thirty only have cell phones, so it's strongly age correlated. I'm guessing it's a trend that will continue.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I am a "younger one" so to speak, I'm 25 years old.

However, 65 years from now I'm certain cellphone technology will be a lot better anyway. Popping and cracking and dropouts pretty much describe cell phone use in my current locale in the North GA mountains very well. Hell, from one room in my house to the others you can lose from one bar to all bars of cellphone signal.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

If computers that can brainhack you with lethal results were as rare and hard to build as suitcase nukes (and this is impossible in today's world for anyone except a major military-industrial complex) you might have a valid parallel.

Instead you seem to be trying to set up a world where computers equal deathrays yet are as common as cellphones. This is the central disconnect. This is the thing that snaps my SoD. This doesn't make sense.

Indeed, one of the things that made SR3 kind of tight-assed was trying to patch logical holes in the setting.

Part of the patch on one of those logical holes was to admit that if you weren't jacked into the Matrix with hot ASiST with all the safety overrides turned off Black Ice couldn't kill you.

Legal sane sararimen never interacted with the Matrix at that level of intensity but they weren't in personal danger either. This made much more sense.

I also may be the wrong to try and use Transhuman Space as a an argument against. I'm listed as a playtester in all but 2 of every TS book SJGames ever published. I missed one because I had major surgery during the playtest. :)

So this means I know that AR is very common in the TS world but not universal, does not require neurosurgery and can't kill you. You didn't even have to participate in AR to reap whatever benefits it grants. You could have your SAI do it for you.

I also know that TS is built around a "strong encryption" assumption. Very strong in 4e terms, when the rest of the computing world in TS is about TL 10, encryption would be TL15 and a half. It's the sort of place where there is very very little serious hacking and the net is improbably secure. That's one of the reason ubiquitous computing works in the setting.

When I was trying to puzzle my way through SR4 I thought the SAI trick was what I would do in that setting. I'd run a disposably cheap computer as my personal node, set it to go "beep" if it got pinged by the cops and mostly ignore it the rest of the time.

AR mostly seems to be an advertising medium in either world and people living in such a world want to find some way to filter out the commercials.

There was a good bit in TS about filtering software but that is only one step short of my having the SAI do the whole thing for you.

So, no. Augmented Reality and Ubiquitous Computing does not automatically lead to brain-frying computers and the universal acceptance of them. I don't think there's a logical way they could

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

*claps for Fred's last post*

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

How about a suitcase full of high explosives? They're pretty easy to make, and can pretty easily kill a buncha people at once in a suitcase sized package as well.

Well then it's a good thing he was responding to Godogma, who hadn't heard of AR, and Flyndaran, wasn't it?

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

CP2020 had it even earlier.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Augmented reality I have no problem with, its the various hacking abilities for cyberware and smartguns and whatnot else that gets my goat.

I don't even mind hacking wirelessly dependent on a few other factors if you remove the ability to hack cyberware and smartguns and all that good rot.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

A command line interface is an interface. If the user isn't using the command line, its availability or level of integration into the OS doesn't change that.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Everyone I know who uses Linux or any other Unix style system swears by the level of control a command line provides as well as the ability they have to compile their own packages etc... I don't know anyone who uses Linux who doesn't use the command line.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Where did I say that computer-deathrays are as common as cellphones?


That makes sense to me ... presuming that a hacker will have to turn off the various autopilots and safety overrides to do most of his hacking, it makes all the sense in the world. Normal ("legitimate") users need never worry about Black ICE, because they're not trying to run illegal software that only runs if you disable all the fuzzy-wuzzy safety controls on your deck.


That's cool, it would have been fun to playtest TS stuff.

Hence, my statement about needing a DNI jack or a set of HUD goggles ... and in a setting where you can have a SAI do it for you, you might even dispense with the goggles.

Yeah, that's one thing that bothered me about TS. It's as though they deliberately hand-waved to make hacking impossible. If I were to run a TS campaign, that's one aspect I'd probably leave out... but then, I'm an old-schooler when it comes to my cyberpunk. :)


Only inasmuch as the internet is mostly an advertising medium. (Well, that and porn...) In both cases, it's mostly an information medium, and so ads are certainly common, but they're just as certainly not the only use.


Never said it did. I think you're trying to argue with someone else.... my assertion was that sensory-interface computers are common in settings where there's lots of sensory-interface information, e.g. AR.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

So it's your argument that command line interface is still a mainstream, commonly-used interface? What percentage of computer users do you think primarily use the command line, i.e. use it more than a GUI? What percentage use the command line at least as often as they use a GUI? What percentage would you guess use it at all?

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I don't think it's inaccurate to say that users who "compile their own packages etc..." are rare. There's considerable overlap between them and people who run Linux, no doubt. But the latter group isn't exactly ubiquitous either.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

In TS the most common sensory interface is video glasses and not neural link.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I have no idea on percentages, I like the convenience of a GUI but I still often use Dosbox and other emulators to run older systems (I play old games and use some old programs) I also use the command line frequently when I use my dual boot box to run Linux.

Granted, its probably fairly uncommon but I wouldn't say its rare. Especially not among the Linux using community.

*shrug*

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Which is probably a lot more realistic. I know that given a choice between a wearable and an implant I'll get a wearable. For one thing you don't want to go under the knife every-time there's a an upgrade or recall. As far as SR goes, though, it's not like it's a realistic setting. I don't see ubiquitous neural interface as less plausible than trolls and ghosts.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I use linux, and I occasionally use the command line interface, but usually I use a GUI.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

True. Another design choice in TS, presumably to try and distance it from cyberpunk, was to downplay implants. I think the jury's still out on that one... I suspect that if computer implants become consumer-available, they'll be pretty popular among considerable segments of the population.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I agree that the Linux and Unix communities certainly make heavy use of the command line, but they're a diminishingly small percentage of regular computer users compared to those who use only Windows or MacOS.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Why? As it currently stands you are likely to replace your phone every 1-2 years. Do you really want to need surgery to do so?

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

You wouldn't necessarily have to go under the knife every time there's an upgrade; most upgrade would probably be handled by firmware updates. But yeah, a lot of folks will be turned off by the idea of implants. However, considering the rising popularity of tattoos, piercings, etc, and the strong likelihood that minor surgery will be an increasingly trifling affair ("I need to swing by the Appel Store and get the latest add-on for my iMplant; I'll be done by 2, so I'll be able to make the meeting."), I think a lot of people's squeamishness towards body modification is going away.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

While hardware doesn't need to be replaced nearly as frequently as it often is, at least if it isn't designed with a short usable lifespan, the kind of person who'd want a neural interface is probably also the kind who would want otherwise cutting-edge gear.

One approach would be to only implant the interface. That way you can upgrade your personal computing system easily. And peripherals don't go obsolete nearly as fast as computers do...a more than 10 year old monitor, mouse, or keyboard could be perfectly serviceable today.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Decided to resurrect this thread, as I've recently gone back into Shadowrun as a setting, and naturally as a GURPS fanboy, conversion to GURPS rules is a common thought about every RPG I see.

I'm on the fence about the Hacking/Netrunning rules, but I do like the Pyramid 3.21 Hacking rules, so I'd recommend using those.

Interestingly, I'd say GURPS' Spell Magic system is perfect for representing Shadowrunner Mages, although I'd ban most of the College of Technology spells, as Tech and Magic don't exactly link up.

Conjuration, the art of calling, binding and banishing Spirits, can be represented through Ritual Magic, limited to the Spirit college.

Essence Loss related to Cyberware is a more complicated matter, although piling up disadvantages would represent the loss of Humanity, while Magery-capable characters would habe "Taboo Trait: cannot get Cybered".

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

Well, IMHO spell magic would need a few important rulings for SR, anyway... Some important ones:

- For standard magic in SR it is very important you have to see the target, through your own eyes or any direct optical device. Compensations with high skill - the default in GURPS Magic - should not be allowed for that aspect.

- Reach: AFAIK mages in SR don't get range penalties for spells. There is only the differentiation between touch-range and visible range - and for things out of sight, there are rituals etc. (e.g. using the blood of a distant victim)

- Loss of fatigue and mental stun damage makes it harder to cast a new spell (penalties). Basically any physical wound would have this effect, too, but I'd say this can be ignored as GURPS deals with damage in a different way than SR and leaving it out should be balanced for mages and mundane characters in comparison.

Maybe something like a permanent penalty on all magery (-1 / lost level of essence) would be adequate...

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

I think I already mentioned this in this thread, but a nifty way to mimic the variable drain from casting in SR is to allow fatigue reductions based on margin of success instead of absolute skill levels. Thus it's variable, but encourages high skill levels. You can start it at 1 FP/5 MoS, and vary the ratio to make magic more on par with guns. For my games I found the sweet spot to be about 1 FP/3 MoS.

Re: GURPS Shadowrun
 

That's pretty much what I do, except that I reduce the energy cost by 1 FP per 2 points of success. I even created a new Cost Fatigue (Margin-Based) limitation to allow me to make powers and abilities along those lines. I've been using this house rull for magic in all my campaigns for the past couple years, and it works pretty well.

In my Shadowrun conversion, specifically, to represent physical drain, what I did is that one-half of the energy cost, rounded down, is paid for with HP instead of FP (or energy reserve). On a successful roll that reduces the energy cost, it's the HP cost that is reduced first.

For example: You have a spell that normally costs 5 energy to cast and 3 energy to maintain. In my conversion, it therefore costs 2 HP and 3 FP to cast, and then another 1 HP and 2 FP to maintain each minute. If you succeed your skill roll by 2, this reduces the cost to 1 HP and 3 FP to cast, and 2 FP to maintain. A margin of success of 4 reduces it to 3 FP to cast and 1 FP to maintain. A margin of 6 makes it 2 FP to cast and no cost to maintain. etc.

Although I didn't use this particular rule all that long as I only had a single "Shadowrun" adventure in my campaign (it was a world/dimension-hopping adventure from my normal primary campaign setting; I ruled the HP cost for casting spells to be a setting effect), for the time it was there, it seemed to work rather well. My spellcasters certainly weren't throwing spells around at will unless they knew it at a really high skill to ensure no damage was taken while casting.