Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

I am working on converting Warmachine/Hordes into GURPS and would like some feedback on this power conversion. Skirmish combat is medium scale group combat in which the PC are represented as Solo units with command of a small group of military assets.

Converted Warmachine / Hordes Abilities

Tough
Source: When this model is disabled, roll a d6. On a 5 or 6, this model heals 1 damage point, is no longer disabled, and is knocked down.

Conversion: Extra Life (Accessibility, Skirmish Combat Only, -30%, Cosmic, Resurrection does not remove Extra Life +100%, Model is restored to 1 HP and is knocked down +0%, Unreliable 9 (5,6) -30% or Unreliable 10 (4,5,6) -25%) [35 or 34]

Description: If the model makes its activation roll, the character is revived to 1 HP and knocked prone but does NOT LOSE THE TOUGH ADVANTAGE. Almost all instances of Tough are Unreliable 9, unless the converted figure has Tough (4, 5, 6) which provides Unreliable 10.

Extra life does not specify what condition the character is returned to life or their location, most of the examples given for extra life imply that the character can be resurrected far from where they died. I felt that the loss of this ability would pretty much offset being healed to minimum HP, which makes it pretty easy to die again right away.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

The Cosmic on Extra Life does not look kosher. I think you should just go for Unkillable 2 with some high level of Regeneration. Circumstantial limitations should get the cost down.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Why should this ability only work in skirmishes? If a trollkin gets hit on the head in an accident, or shot in an operational battle he's somehow less tough?

I really don't think this ability needs to be translated as anything special anyway. Damage in Warmachine is much more abstract than GURPS. I'd just give Trollkin some combination of high HT, Hard to Subdue, Hard to Kill, and/or Regeneration.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Permanent extra lives have been functionally described in this forum for quite some time, but Extra Life may not be the advantage you are looking for.

Converting from a tabletop battle system to GURPS is difficult, and what is described here is an innate ability to shrug off an attack that would otherwise "disable" them, and then set them at 1 hp (w/e that is) in a prone position.

"Disabled" is a difficult term here, because it can mean a lot of things, Dead, Unconscious, Paralyzed, etc, and in the system it may not matter because in a battle if you are "disabled" you are effectively "dead" regardless of whether or not you actually ARE dead.

For this to be an effective GURPS conversion, you would need to:
a) decide what "disabled" means for you
b) Trigger a set of advantages based upon that/those condition/s

Now, you have to make a conceptual link here too, is the "tough" advantage in the game designed to bring them back to life? Or is it designed to make them look like monsters that never REALLY get killed, and you put a few extra bullets in them just to make sure they STAY dead? If it's the former, then by all means use extra life, if this the latter, use Unkillable 1.

The flavor of the system is what GURPS really excels at, and direct conversions are usually next to impossible.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Unkillable is not really what I am looking for as it prevents you from dieing from failed death saves.

The problem with just using Tough to Kill is that if you make your save vs death you are still unconsious. The trollkin standard write up has Hard to kill, Hard to subdue, and extra HT and HP. All of which come into plan during standard small group combat or knocked on the head by a falling anvil. It might be better priced as Hard to Kill (Special, does not fall unconsious). Only downside is that you keep having to make death saves if you are at negative HP.

"Disabled" in this context is unconsious, dead, coma, or lack of FP sufficent to disable.

Instant death effects result in the model being removed from play and Tough does not activate.

The effect is intended to represent the abiltiy to reduce what would normally be a disabling attack to a "minor hit"

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

What's the in-game justification for this ability that only works when the character is in command of a certain sized group in a battle?

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Where was permanent extra lives described? I cant seem to find it at all

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

I think the usual solution for this is to sell back the benefits of Unkillable 1.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

The in game justification for the abiltity working as part of a larger scale battle is that the essence field of each soldier combines into a self reenforcing pattern the empower select abilities created to harness such effects.

The out of game justification is that its a lot simpler to track.

I am not sure what you mean. Could you please explain?

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Why not larger battles? Why only skirmishes? What happens if the Trollkin is in command of a company-sized element or larger?

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Unkillable 1 :
no staying alive HT roll untill -10*HP

Unkillable 2/3 :
no staying alive HT roll untill -10*HP
and
return from death after -10*hp

unkillable 2/3 without 1
return from death after a failed staying alive HT roll
usually priced as unkillable 2/3(not unkillable 1:-20%)

Hope this help

Celjabba

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

The other way to work it is to note that one-off abilities (Favor, for instance) are typically one fifth the cost. Sometimes that doesn't work out right, but in this case, reverse-engineering that, making Extra Life not a one-off ability gives it a price of 125, which fits neatly in between Unkillable 2 and Unkillable 3. Call it a +400% enhancement on Extra Life.

The problem with selling back Unkillable 1 when you have Unkillable 3 is that you can't be sure Unkillable 1 is really worth 50 points as part of Unkillable 3.

Not having to make death checks or instant-die at -5xHP is worth 50 points for a character that can die (i.e. one that has Unkillable 1), but it's not worth as much for a character that can't die, since if he 'dies' he's just out of the fight, not out of the game.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

The suggestion above, wich origin at first from RPK mygurps, is -20% for selling back UK1, probably for that exact reason.

Celjabba

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

That does seem to have been the thought behind his ruling. I think it somewhat undervalues the limitation... also, it is a bit vexing that it makes it more of an absolute drawback for Unk3 than for Unk2. Not that I have a big beef with the idea... it is quite playable as a houserule.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

I would generally just throw away trying to make direct conversions of abilities, and instead try to find why Tough Models are Tough. In the Iron Kingdoms RPG, Trollkin(tough) have high constitution and an ability to shrug off "non-lethal" damage. I think this translates more as:

HT 13+, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Hard to Kill 2 or Hard to Subdue and Very Rapid Healing(maybe even a very low powered version of Regeneration).


Trying to do direct conversions of wargames into roleplaying is just silly.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Silly perhaps but I enjoy the discussions.

After further consideration and reading the post above. I think I will have to go with something along the lines of

HT +2, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Hard to Kill 2 (Added effect, If this bonus makes the difference between success and failure of a death save, you DO NOT collapse apparently dead or unconsious. + 50%) and Hard to Subdue 2.

Re: Converted Abiltiy: Tough
 

Well, I mean that actually trying to convert one mechanic directly is a poor technique, because the underlying philosophies of the games are different and the balances have different end results in mind.


Don't make it hard to kill. Instead make it hard to Subdue: this keeps the toughies fighting except when gibbed by massive attacks(and they might even survive a few of those), rather than being knocked out and coming to later.

"Tough" is probably best represented as a combination of Hard to Subdue and high HT. Trollkin arn't the only tough models out there though. The resistance to metabolic hazards applies to the Trollkin, rather than as a blanket "tough" component.

For what it's worth, here's what I would propose as a racial template for troll kin:
ST +4, HP +2, DX -1, HT +3, Basic Speed -1, SM +1
Hard to Kill 2, Hard to Subdue 2, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Regeneration(slow) and regrowth. Hamfisted and some form of social disadvantages are in order. Social Stigma(Barbarians) is suitable for Kriel Trolls who arn't living in the human cities. Appearance you may have to figure out someway else: I think some trollkin look silly and buffonish, but some are real swell lookers.

Trollkin are large and powerful by human standards and can take greater abuse than a man. They are somewhat clumsier and less agile, and notably slower in a foot race than a man.

Full blooded trolls, on the other hand, are considerably dumber(IQ -2 or even 3), but are also much larger(SM 2 or 3, ST +8, HP +4) and solid. And their regeneration is much more extreme. Dire trolls are, again, even dumber and larger. I'd expect them to have high 20s ST scores, with low 30s a distinct possibility. And some really cool tricks in the case of earthborn.